1. I am still going over the fine print and the numbered absolutely out of the question details, but my first question has to do with red herrings and "continuity." I thought I would run it by this esteemed group, before I put myself in the line of fire. In other words I am trying to find a way to word my question, so that I won't get an answer I don't like If any of you could be of help, I would appreciate your input.

2. (Not sure why I am numbering these, but RAWA did so I will). One of my storytelling wishes was to write branches that take explorers on wild goose chases willingly. They would not know if my characters were charlatans or know something no one else does. In other cases my stories might be seeded by the grandest storyteller RAWA. These stores he (or other) seeded me would be perfectly legitimate short meanders. Of course the fledgling writer Ruby does not expect to carry any part of core story anywhere. I would be happy revealing some little tidbit of something that fits into all the rest.

3. In fact I already have such a branch in mind. It includes a good bit of silliness and humor, but there is documentation in some cavern offices that it could be true (with a bit of elaboration & convincing). Now, I am not sure that it is not canon. Zardoz reminded me of an important fact: the checkerboard is barely revealed. My impending story is a far fetcher, but its possible I guess. W can talk about this later, but any writer worth h/her salt doesn't get to far off the beaten roadmap or canon. If that happens all connections are lost.

4. I don't want to encroach on the checkerboard, because I've been waiting for such a long time to find out in the due course what the rest of the story is...My plan was to write, share, be a part of the process, and continued to be surprised like everybody else.

5. Because I can't find a way to discuss this any other way, I put my stories into categories. Please see chart below, and add or comment as you like. On the one hand I am breathlessly excited by this whole process. On the other hand, I have only seen this process at work once in the past. It worked beautifully, but amazing things happened, and the game/story never got off the tarmac.

6. I agree with RAWA this is whole new ballgame. Or at least I think that he was getting @

Short List Chart of Ways to Tell and Branch the Story:

Adds to Lore and/and Possibly to Canon, if deemed appropriate by TPTB
A. Create/write an age that tells the story environmentally.

B. Create/write an age that tells the story environmentally, and uses characters, script, dialog, 2D counterpart (one or all).

C. Outline a story that uses characters, scripts, dialog, 2D counterpart (one or all), and illustrates an age to
tell the story.

D. Tell a story using allusions to canon, but not infringing on canon (as I interpreted what RAWA disclaimed). Uses
characters, script, dialog, and 2D counterpart (one or all + audio/video/whatever). This kind of storytelling could use actors, but does not require a set. No age is created/written.

Now for the Red Herrings

A. A red herring could allude to canon, but the character(s) involved in the caper are generally found out, before eternal damage is done. Red herrings do not require age creation/writing. Red Herrings use existing story and landscapes to mess with a person's mind Now I do sound mean and diabolical.

This what I have so far. Anything else I would say at this point might negate my chances of living until tomorrow. Its just that conflict and consequences is what makes reading/playing worth it. I like my A/R life to be full of intrigue, so that my RL life can be as dull as dirt.


Ruby

PS. See what I mean, Al. It is a good thing Ruby landed when she did. Otherwise no telling where she will stir pots. Imagine the groans when Madge returns. Deafening...

I was ecstatic to see RAWA's post! Some much needed guidance. However, there are a few areas that concern me.

There are some underlying assumptions that have not been addressed that I think need to be explicitly addressed, such as the relationship of fan stories to each other (one world, instanced story, etc).

Also, there are a lot of basic unknowns that can be points of contention. There will be a lot of things people can't touch because any statement on the subject might be making sweeping statements about the D'ni on the subject.

I think I said whew, then ok, and now to onto other issues.


This is something I can't wait to start working on. Last summer's foray into storytelling was made more interesting and believable, *because stories/ characters crossed paths and met at intersections. I smiled when I saw your gas station question. @ my neighborhood station I run into folks who drive 1978 impalas, check their mileage, empty their wallets (of their life savings), pump the gas and start the climb up Mt. Everest. Gas stations are connection locations. Whilst I am writing, 2 of Ruby's southwestern NM cowpoke friends are trying to locate your gas station on the map. Their intention is to only stop and get the gas, or maybe buy some oil.

Mesh (what we call the soup in the 3rd grade) is mighty nice.

Ruby

I do have one question of the Grand Poohbears over here. When we actually get into consideration and approvals, and whatever else, will we have a closed forum for that? 2. Since it appears that this is a safe (stable) and very nice place for storytellers to gather, is this the storytelling place to be - or will storytellers need to meet up elsewhere if they desire to meet up for any potential sharing of tidbits? Is there a need?

Aside: We have a shared storytelling forum at CCN in past years, but I am wanting to get out of the forum admin business. I push all the buttons, and things go kaflooey. I think CCN's massive (and dusty) warehouse could be used (in part) for a raw texture exchange. I know I plan to share my un-doctored-up photos.

*I know this was probably not so seamless as it seemed. The storytellers surely ran down all sorts of roads to assure their map was intact. It was well done, and they made it look easy.

I am merely a Grand Poohbear of Very Little Brain, but here's my take. 99.3% of the time, I am fanatical about conducting Uru affairs in the open. But this is an exception for which I will argue strenuously. Cyan has basically given its blessing and outright support for explorer-generated stories, and so at last there is a chance that the fan base (or at least the majority, so it seems) will move beyond its prejudice against them and quit demanding to know whether a character is "official" or not. Story works best, however, if people don't know what's coming. Imagine, Ruby, if you had read a synopsis of your trip with Vali: "The story will take an unsuspecting reporter to a silo, where large explosions will unexpectedly occur." Ooops.

All of this points to a way of discussing plot details or anything that requires review out of the public eye. Perhaps the best way to do that would be to have a non-public forum, but eventually move whatever "official" record there is from that forum to a public forum after the fact (that wouldn't work for long-running stories, but we'll figure something out). Explorers should be able to review any decision made by any of these fan-based bodies, but in this case, keeping the record "sealed" for at least an initial period would serve a good purpose, I believe.



Not sure I believe any of that, as the coffee is just starting to kick in . . .

I agree that we will have to figure out some way to accomidate those people who want to remain anonymous except in the IC arena. While we need to be able to validate story, it's not our job to spoil it. So I would think a closed forum for review would be needed. After that, records will need to be kept and, maybe, a 6 month non-disclosure period? After that point, the original proposal is made public (maybe not with the names, if requested?).

Maybe, at the end of six months, the people in charge of the story can ask for another 6 months (for long running story?)

I like the idea of NDA's however 6 months for some may not be long enough. The possibility of us coming to you and saying "hey this is my idea, I'll need you to sign this NDA on which you are covered until we see fit" would be handy to some people. When the story teller deems it ok to post the proposal public then the Guild would go ahead.

Whilst the Archivists have the overall say in whether a story is allowed, I feel the story teller should have the overall say in privacy.

Alahmnat and others may jump in to clarify this issue, but it's my understanding that Archivists are not storytellers but reporters of the story. Although the Guild of Archivists has been charged with monitoring for continuity, the story is being written by others. So I would say this is not the "storytelling place to be."

Donahoo is correct, the GoA's primary official responsibility in MORE will be to approve story-related content, not create it. That said, I have no problem with people utilizing the resources here on DPWR to plan and discuss their storytelling projects (the Studio Floor forum is a good place to get started), and I also have no problems with story tellers collaborating with Archivists to develop stories before submitting them to the FCAL panel to ensure that they're as compliant as possible before starting the review process. However, planning conversations on the forum will be publicly visible, so you may not want to go into too much depth there (PMs are private, but obviously that limits group planning to groups of two). I don't know the full extent to which Tweek is planning on supporting story development through the Guild of Fine Artists, but I suspect that they may be a better resource for planning and discussing story, and the GoA would be a better resource for referencing existing material (up to and including direct collaboration with Guild members not presently serving on the FCAL panel).

In the interests of ensuring ease of development, we may eventually provide a resource to storytellers with cursory information regarding approved stories and plots in much the same way as I believe GoMa is intending to provide a catalog of approved and in-progress Ages being developed. This story listing would obviously be as light as humanly possible on specifics and spoilers, and may be implemented in a viewing-restricted format to ensure that the general Cavern public will remain unspoiled, while other storytellers can see what's being worked on and possibly adjust their own plans accordingly before they submit a FCAL application and end up having to do re-workings at a later date (when it's harder to change plot elements) to ensure that they don't create major contradictions. Again, though, I'd have to work with Tweek to figure out what he plans on doing about storytelling development in the GoFA, and see if this is something he would rather provide through that Guild. It's early days yet, and there's a LOT to be worked out. I'll see if I can get Tweek to weigh in over here with his thoughts.

So, in terms of in-game artifacts (Ages, items, things you make/program), there seems to be a division between creators and inspectors - the Writer create and help others create and the Maintainers inspect, validate and record what they have found.

It sounds like what you are saying is that for in-game intangibles (story, history, etc), we need the same divison. Some group to create and help others create story, history, character, etc., and the Archivists, who validate, inspect, record and categorize. And Alahmnat, you are suggesting that the Guild of Fine-Artists would be the organization to support the creation aspect.

Am I understanding that correctly?

Gary has seen bits of what I've been working on, leftover from MOUL, and being revived for MORE. It's still a work in progress, and I figured it would be tangentally connected to the GoA, as the story-keepers. But, with the question of storytelling falling under the realm of the GoFA, I figure I should toss it out and let them that is in charge figure it out.

http://imaginists.dninetwork.net/

Alahmnat, I'm glad you are so agreeable to the landing of this lot. I especially like the ideas in the last paragraph. As a RL historian, I want to say that I very much disagree that the storykeepers are separate from the storytellers. In every ancient civilization I've ever studied, the storytellers were the storykeepers. Look at the Icelandic Eddas, for example. The most revered people (the old people, btw) were those who "kept the records;" the stories, the history, the legends -- because they kept the memories (and in their heads, too). None of those were separated from each other until the late Middle Ages. Medieval Monastic Orders (Cistercians) used storytelling to teach members their way of life. Native American history is part of their stories. Even the history of all three major religions, of Rome, of the United States -- these are all stories

BTW, 'twas a conversation with Ruby-O that caused that realization to "pop" into my little pea-brain. History is story.

To me this is the exact place the storytellers should be. Since the term "writing" was used for age building, and since there has been no mention of even an association/guild/society of storytellers, I've wandered about looking for a place to stop and put down roots. CCN and Crew is great fun, but the "place" has a personality that is not to everyone's taste. This is the place for anyone. I am happy to help take the workload off of you Alahmnat, if it means I can help the storytellers (and keepers) build the home they envision this could be.

If not, we darned well deserve a Guild of Storytellers....

Anyway, I am also interested in what Blade asked about Explorer Canon and crossing storylines with other explorers. I agree it makes each story more interesting if it is done well and seems natural. My Aunt Dolly called me yesterday from the White Mountains in Arizona. She's glad to hear about the Cavern and would be happy to add that gas station to her list of places to stop on her way down. I look forward to seeing how all of that that gets worked out.

As for a guild of Storytellers, I think that's what Eleri was shooting for. Whether that belongs in the GoFA or separate is still a discussion to be had.

As for the question on checking for conflicts between various fan stories, I'm going to keep bringing it up until we get a definitive answer one way or another. At this point, I feel it's the most critical question we have still open. What the GoA is doing and how it does things hinges on the answer.

If we are only to check for conflicts with Cyan-canon, then our job is relatively easy. But if we are checking for conflicts between fan stories, then Cyan is asking us to record and protect an actual canon continuity. That's fine if that's what they want - I'd have a fine ol' time doing so, myself. But it's a lot of work and a very different beast than the first option.

If we are enforcing a canon, I also think we'll need to have to look at the difference between story that affects D'ni history and the 'canon' of modern activity (what happens IC in MORE). I know that RAWA said it's pretty much work as it did in MOUL. But that answer frustrated the hell out of me, because it was never actually defined in MOUL. The question of the canonicity of in cavern activity was never addressed - there was no way to determine if certain things were facts or not.

Well as it stands, the GoFA is looking to have divisions tailored to a specific field of work (photography, painting, writing/creative writing, sculptors). At the moment those who are helping with the planning like the idea of divisions within the guild, however I haven't sat down and listed all the ones there could be (actors, dancers etc etc). The chance of story tellers falling under the scope of the GoFA is there (creative writing etc) but it isn't something that we have gotten around to discussing yet. I'll bring it up and find out what the opinion is.

I'd note that creative writing is a different discipline than enacting story in a shared environment. And creating Story™ requires many skills (worldbuilding, prose writing, script writing, acting, improv, etc), just as Writing Ages requires many skills (modeling, coding, texturing, etc).

I see your point Donahoo. There is a difference between reporting a story and telling a tale. As a member of the guild it would be inappropriate for me to continue wearing my storytelling cap, while determining if some other storyteller's story crosses canon lines (or will cross canon lines).

And in this case I suppose it does not matter that I've never looked at historical fact or fiction without bias. Fact to me is rarely ever fact. It is generally what an historian leaves in or edits out, and to the winner goes the *veracity/truth. I believe tis why I am drawn to the "the soothing, rocking safety of a lie." Teaching history while repeating the mantra "beware, this is secondary source material" gets old after awhile".

I am glad you were honest enough to state your case. No nonsense to a person who lives and breathes for a fair amount of nonsense. My qoal (at present) is to determine whether or not storytellers can work in a quasi-collaborative fashion in a safe environment without stepping over one another and destroying any surprise?

As some have noted, Ruby is posting often (and in several topics) these days. In only a few instances was it necessary to post on the public forum. This is one of those times when I believe it necessary to consider every road block and discuss it. While it may appear like I am rushing to ask for this or that, its been years in truth. At the same time I don't expect overnight remedies. I am simply trying to determine whether the roadmap (down the road) is sufficiently wide enough for the McTinker Family Band.
Practice Field


Ruby
Disclaimer: 1. McTinker is Ruby's maiden sir name
2. The story about the age alluded to above is fiction embedded in fiction and embellished with fiction, but the sentiment is true (from my perspective and in historical context). In other words, it is not part of my story in process. I lied for the sake of making my (some would argue) flimsy counterpoint.

Postscript: Tweek does the Guild of Fine Artists accommodate the unwieldy and somewhat stubborn storytellers group, (if there was one)? I am not sure whether you said they did or did not?

*oh heck, and I am not trying to stir pots about the definition of truth. There is a truth and I am sure it has its own color like sound or UV waves, but its very hard to see through my dusty lens.

Oh Ruby, I didn't mean to imply that you are not welcome at the forum. I was merely commenting on my perceived role of Archivists.

Of course, I knew you did not mean to imply that. What you said was important to say. It is an excellent reminder of what separates the rice from the refried beans. I plan to stay put after I've had a sufficient sob (just kidding ) I plan to keep Ruby from talking about her membership in the GoA. I will need a truck full of duct tape, so I will be asking for duct tape contributions. Defining what is mission is a no nonsense kind of thing. She can't be messing around with that business, once the markers/stops are set.

Ruby as storyteller wannabe will likely need to take the tinker cart elsewhere to set up shop. We are discussing turning part of CCN into a texture repository. Since its a big, mainly unused site, it will still be a resource for the GOM too. I am working out of the tinker cart, because I loathe the administrative jobs necessary to keep spammers out of the CCN forum and workshops. I think I finally concluded administration is not my gift. Others knew this years ago, but Ruby is a slow meandering thinker, who lives in her never-never land intentionally.

Nope, Donahoo. I appreciate your work ethic, organizational skills and aptitude for creating a great playlist. I also know you as a kind and fair sort of person. You will have to forgive me for making a silly story out of everything. I've been warned before about the effects of "running on " stories <bonks herself on noggin>.

Ruby

I disagree that there is a conflict between creating Story and being an Archivist. I mean, no one is asking that Maintainers don't make Ages (and, in fact one of the Maintainer Guild Masters is really good at Age creation and actively pursues it). I'd think we'd need people well-practiced in Story to help be judges of what might be an issue and what might not.

Now, I can see that an Archivist who makes a story shouldn't be part of the validation process for their particular story. But I don't think they should be precluded from engaging in storytelling themselves.

Oh, I agree with your disagreement. I only meant that Ruby will not be confusing any contribution she makes to guild decisions about other storyteller's stories with her own story. Also, you asked in another post whether there should be an I/C Guild of Archivists presence/story? If that were the case, Ruby may someday mention her involvement with the guild I/C or in story. Otherwise she won't.

I think I am about through posting for a few days. I am starting to confuse myself with my own contradictions. The last time I posted/asked questions this much was during the fall of 2007 (GOM thread), and the time before that it was during the Liaison Election, and the time before that it was during the launch of CCN/TCT. I am beginning to see a pattern here. Not so pretty, huh? No need to answer. I already know.

I saw your post on MOUL, Alahmnat Guild of Fine Artists, p3, near the bottom I do think I get what some of the issue is regarding this being the place where the Storytellers are housed. It has to do with the public and open nature of the forums and posts themselves, is that it? It sounds like you want everything here to be transparent to the public, and of course artists of like mind need a place to talk amongst themselves in private.

So, the questions is (sniff, sniff, stick-chin-out) where can we go (again) to set up shop and stay? I don't need to know what surprise anyone else is planning for their story, nor do I plan to reveal all of my surprises. What I would really like, though, is a place the "surprisors" can be and talk about "theoretical surprises and techniques thereof" with each other. We can each still take our turn on the panel if we are eligible, and still help here with this and that task. Tweek, if you will locate the Guild of Fine Artists close to the Archives, that might help. (Don't ask me to explain that, lol)

I don't know why the storytellers have to be subsumed under any other group, but then again, I don't object if we are. I can understand why we wouldn't want to read yet one more forum. Still, even within storytelling there can be many divisions. The forum could be fairly small or it could become huge. There's really no way to tell right now. But, I guess if we are bound to move again, now would be the time to do it.

edit: I went back over to the GoFA, the GOW, CCN, and around to other forums. None of them feel right at the moment. Only this one does. I still can't explain why -- it's hovering above my head where I understand it but can't reach it with my left brain so as to put it into language. I do, however, think it has to do with a term known as substance. There is substance here. Part of that exists on the space, part of that is the group that gravitated here so quickly. I feel like I'm in a familiar old place, and all I have to do is get back to work.

You know why not combine the two? If you ask me the GOA and the GOFA could very much work as a Team.

Just my 2 sense.

I'll pipe in here to restate what I think the current situation is:

1. GOA and storytellers are not the same organization

2. DPWR will gladly host the storytellers (but see #3)

3. DPWR will not provide the secrecy that storytellers desire

4. Storytellers may be happier somewhere else

The reason why #3 is true I am not certain of. It may be from Alahmnat's desire for GOA to be as transparent as possible considering the gravity of its involvement in FCAL and MORE. Alternately, it may be a position that Almahnat has taken regarding DPWR in general. Hidden boards by definition mean that some people can't see some things, which means someone is some how deciding who is IN and who is OUT.

The point I mean to reemphasize is that GOA is not trying to arbitrarily drive storytellers away, but rather thinks they might be happier somewhere else. I, and probably others, would encourage collaboration between storytellers and GOA, but one is neither the same nor meets all the needs of the other.

So, maybe the Guild of Imaginists sits right in the middle.

The GoA keeps track of Stories, as they become 'archiveable'. The GoFA is where the storytellers can hang out and talk about their art. And the GoI lets people know who what when as far as active story goes.

If DPWR is to be considered a true archival organization, then there would be a reason to create a private place, but that doesn't mean it would be a good thing to do. Research institutions such as the Library of Congress, the U.S. Archives, and the British Library have areas open to the public but also areas open only to scholars with something on the order of a research permit. The permits aren't hard to obtain, but they give you access to such areas (including the stacks for the libraries, so it wouldn't be the same as here) because you were there to conduct research, not just look at the really cool rooms and card catalogs. One could argue for the same structure here. A storyteller could obtain a research permit, giving them access to the Reading Room Forum, which would really be a place for storytellers to discuss details or whatever.

Having put it that way, however, I really don't think that's the right way to gather the storytellers together. My tastes lean more toward coffee and pastry shops, where back corner tables are stained with the blood of the poor chaps who have suffered the latest reading group savage attacks. A library or archive is a place to study and gather material for a story, not have it survive or die as it passes through the crucible of critique.

Wouldn't that be handled by items like The Archiver, The Firemarble, UO's Cavern Today etc.

I am beginning to agree with you, and not just because you know where I sleep

I think the issue here is that 'storytelling' in Uru has several definitions. But the one that I think we are discussing is Story™. I think it's what we are all really reaching for, but I think it's one that no one has been able to define or talk about clearly, even Cyan.

The Art of Story™ is made up of the Arts of Being In Cavern and Expanding Canon. These are disciplines of speculative re-enactment (as opposed to historical re-enactment), role-playing, world building and community management. I think you use a lot of the skills the GoFA is talking about - acting, creative writing, etc. But I think that these arts can't be reduced to their component parts.

There needs to be a place where Authors (as opposed to authors), Imaginists or whatever you call them can gather, discuss and plan Story™ (not just story) and can get support for this art (which is vital to MORE) as an art itself, not just as a byproduct of other activities. Whether that place is a part of the Archivists, a part of the Fine Artists or an independent entity, I am not certain. But it needs to be considered on its own.

yep, Tweek, got any room(s)/pubs/libraries/shafts/broom closets at the Inn? I m not too picky at this point, or beggars can't be choosy or don't punch a gift horse in the mouth. If I stick to Clichés I won't confuse myself further.

As I mentioned previously I believe there is room at the GoFA for this, by specifying what it is that will be needed means that section can be set up to how it would best suit those who use it. Whether you call it Storylines, Story Tellers, Authors it amounts to the same thing in nature, what it's actually called isn't as important as the content within.

Fair enough. My goal was to make sure the essence of what I was trying to describe was understood.

Yes, I get it. Can't say it back to you either, Blade, but I get it. Guess that's all that counts, eh?

Lookit you, Zardoz, whipping out the awesome library analogies . Well said, though I guess we'll see how this whole thing pans out...


More accurately, in regards to #3, is that DPWR in its current state can't provide the secrecy that storytellers desire to the degree that it seems would be necessary. I could set up a private forum and opt people into it without any difficulty, but everything within that forum would be open to viewing and discussion by those with permissions to access it, which I gather may still be a bit too "public" for some people's preferences (if I'm wrong here, feel free to correct me). What I had pictured was a more privacy-oriented solution where storytellers could collaborate privately in small groups (akin to Zardoz's coffee and pastry shop musings), with very restrictive access to those nitty-gritty planning discussions, managed by the storytellers that started the discussion. The forum here just doesn't have that level of granular access control built into it (phpBB3 seems to be a bit more advanced than IPB in this regard, which I know Tweek is using over at the GoFA; another reason I brought this up). If this is well beyond the requirements of those here interested in using DPWR as a base for storytelling, please let me know. I hope Tweek doesn't take it as a territory incursion, but I can certainly set up a separate private storytelling planning forum for those interested in utilizing it and are more comfortable here than at the GoFA, if that's all that is needed.


Yeah, pretty much that. If I'm wrong, and the folks already here wish to carry out their storytelling planning in a way that this site can support, I'm happy to have you and help you. I'm just trying to make sure everyone's needs can be met satisfactorily. Since the GoFA was discussing the possibility of putting storytelling under their umbrella before Tweek started their planning forum, I figured I'd start the discussions to see which way people wanted to go with that.

Perhaps, as Tweek suggests, a useful thing to do would be to poll the storytellers here and see what you guys want/need in terms of site architecture in order for you to do your thing. From there, we can make better determinations on what would be the best place for you to ply your craft.

Okay, I get it. You want me to take my tinker cart and get on out'a here.

I did. I moved the darn thing over toTweek's GOFA parking lot. When he opens the gate to feed the cats, I'll rush right on in, before he notices the dust left by my tracks.

You on the other hand aren't getting off so easy either. I intend to stay put here too. (As a former member the Students of D'ni Knowledge) and the bakers of the Kirel Baked Treats & Fruitcakes, it is my intention to remain close to the source of research. I need to be sure my stories are not causing canon alarm. There is no better way to learn than to learn while making judgments about other explorer's work.

The guild (other than the GoM) who is going to be the most distressed I've decided to stay will be the Guild of Writers. Thanks to Tweek's (average Joe explorer) "I LEARNED HOW TO MAKE AN AGE IN BLENDER, AND IT WAS READY IN A WEEK!" I decided to purchase 3dsMax. It will no doubt take me a coon's age to learn it, but I am actually enjoying the pursuit. Now I just need to make some cross connections with my old storytelling, or should I say situation setting up buddies, and off we go. If it is even 1/4 as much fun as it was last summer, it will be great times and a great education to boot.

Thanks again for even entertaining the notion of offering the not really I/C and not really OOC crowd out. It's always dangerous to do so.