What actually happened to Sirrus and Achenar?

In general discussions it is usually assumed that Sirrus and Achenar remained imprisoned forever in the red and blue books on Myst. However at the end of Myst both books have disappeared leaving only scorch marks on the lecterns where they had been placed. If Atrus had merely removed them after leaving you to hang around in D'ni why the scorch marks? However, assuming the books were destroyed by Atrus what effect would the destruction of the prison books have on their inmates? I'm afraid I'm not too clear on prison books - if these are like linking books then presumably there is a description book somewhere. That said I'm not sure why you would need seperate linking (or trap) books and description books. Would the destruction of the prison books also kill their inmates or merely remove all possibility of escape?

Ultimately I suppose this relates to the relationship between writing and creation and whether the the destruction of a description book would destroy the Age described assuming that the writing of the age brought the age into existence. If on the other hand a description book merely describes a pre-existing age then its destruction would not result in the destruction of the Age. In the case of a prison book, does the writing create the prison or link to a pre-existing one? If the writing creates the prison what does this imply when the books are destroyed? Did Atrus kill his sons when he destroyed the prison books?

This post has been edited by wildbe: Jun 24 2003, 05:53 AM

Trap Books, like the ones Sirrus, Achenar, and Gehn are in, are a simplification of Prison Ages made to keep the gameplay simple. In the historical documentation, the three were trapped in Prison Ages, which are simply regular Ages with no link back.

Burning a Book does nothing to the Age itself, just like burning a bridge does nothing to the opposite shore, you just can't get there anymore. So, the brothers are just stuck in these other Ages with no way home and no way to ever be rescued.

Thanks Al - sorry for being dense I just hadn't really grasped the Prison Ages bit. I wonder however, given Gehn's undoubted resourcefulness whether he managed to find a workaround in his Prison Age similar to that he found in Riven and start writing ages again!! After all he was trapped in Riven as well!

Yeah, but Riven had trees. I don't think Atrus would have been as kind the second time around.

Must be pretty lonely at the family reunions.

Actually, the scorch marks (however they do suggest it) do not mean that the Books have been BURNED. Such marks may also be the result of the Books lying there during many years, and, since these Books imply some kind or working, this function will generate some heath, even if only a slight one.
Thus, I see the way still open for a new-coming of the two brothers, if Atrus just stored these Books in a safe place. Actually, nobody saw him burning or destroying the Books...

Cyan's website at myst.com says the books were burned, so they were burned...

Burning a Book does nothing to the Age itself, just like burning a bridge does nothing to the opposite shore, you just can't get there anymore.  So, the brothers are just stuck in these other Ages with no way home and no way to ever be rescued.

What I have never understood is if the Ages still survive, why can't they come back? All that has to be done is for someone to write the appropriate linking book to the Prison Age. OK, for the current time (i.e. DRC/Uru) there is presumably little info on writing Ages, or making materials for books etc that would allow this to be done. But what if the restoration of D'ni does find books on Age writing, materials for books, and on writing Prison Ages. Of course there are also others in other Ages with the ability to write - I see a future for the boys.

Once a link is destroyed, the odds of writing another link back to it are so close to nil that they may as well be interpreted as "impossible". Even if you wrote two Ages exactly the same in two seperate books, you would end up linking to two seperate worlds almost without fail (like, nine hundred ninety-nine million, nine hundred ninety-nine thousand, nine hundred ninety-nine point nine nine nine nine nine five times out of one billion). Such is the nature of the Great Tree of Possibility. Even with an incredibly precise description, there are still a near-infinite number of "branches" from which an Age can split off at that specific point. This is why Atrus was so pained about the loss of the Books in his Library... once the link was destroyed, it couldn't be re-built. It's a bit like trying to build a new bridge to the exaclt same place on the opposite shore of a river using the old bridge's rusted, burned-out supports. It doesn't work.

I’m not sure I’m ever convinced of arguments about all the possibilities denying the possibility of duplication. The very nature of writing and using a Descriptive Book (i.e. a description of an age) is fraught with problems because the Age is not static while the book is (at least when its first written and used). I guess the argument is that the book establishes a “link” (I guess like a worm-hole) with the age so that you can link back and forth even though time (and the Age) changes. This type of link would be needed because any change (a butterfly flaps its wings and Apple Computer crumbles) in the Age would negate the Descriptive Book - such is the extent of the great tree of possibilities. For me the ability of a descriptive yet static object allowing access to a dynamic world is a convenient rather than convincing argument. Of course one accepts it because its established dogma, and its easier to go with the flow and enjoy other aspects of the D’ni universe.

But then what we know about the universe today is simply what we have come to understand, what’s dogma today is shown to be incomplete tomorrow. Actually much of our understanding of the universe is incomplete. As my first comment implies I propose that the great tree of possibilities makes duplication possible.

a butterfly flaps its wings and Apple Computer crumbles – another branch of the Great Tree of possibilities. A butterfly flap is wings past an open window where a cat leaps out to catch it. The cat falls ten stories, bounces off an awning and into the windshield of a speeding car causing the car to crash and killing the occupants which include Steve Jobs making him later than he’s ever been for any meeting. The stock market reacts negatively, as usual, and Apple Computer crumbles.

As I understand it, when you write an Age, the Book ties itself to one specific instance of a world on the Tree. From there, the Book follows it down the path it takes as it continues to branch off through the Tree. This is why an Age can describe a place that looks one way, but after hundreds of years, the Age will no longer really resemble the description in the Book. That's what the Books of Commentary are for... they're like little journals about the Age that track not only what the Age is like, but how it's changing. Writing changes into the Book itself, however, will more often than not (but not always) cause the link to shift to a new Age, because you've changed the parameters of the description, rather than allowing the Age to define itself (quantum mechanics is weird...).

Because at any given instant in time, an Age can branch off into a near-infinite number of Ages which are almost exactly identical, save for one small, even indiscernable detail, the chances of being able to just "happen across" an Age that's already been written are infinitiessimally small. Additionally, there are so many things that you simply can't describe in absolute detail when you write an Age that the Book itself is also part of the connecting process, and it will "choose" an Age which most closely fits the description you gave it. But since there are a near-infinite number of Ages that are that close to your description, again, the odds of accidentally (or intentionally) linking to an Age that's been described in another Book are nil.

RAWA writes the following:

Fan A wrote
what happens if two linking books are written identically? (by the same writer, by different writers -- at the same time, at different times)

Fan B wrote
I suspect that two writers, not in contact, accidentally writing the same series of characters into their Descriptive Books, would get different ages, superficially similar, but with difference - Atrus is always commenting, in his journals, about how much he finds that he didn't write.

Even if the same writer wrote the exact same thing in two different Descriptive Books, the changes of the Descriptive Books linking to the same Age are so extremely remote that it's considered impossible to write two Descriptive Books to the same Age. In the "infinity" of the "Tree of Possibilites" there are countless worlds to match any description you can write. There is a chaotic element in how the Book selects which of those many worlds it will link to, which even the D'ni never were able to compensate for.

There are documented theories that this chaotic element is due to the fact that no two Descriptive Books are exactly alike, and that these differences influence the initial Link. Experiments were attempted to produce identical Books, but the experiments were never successful, so this theory remains unproven.

I do recall the BOT set a precedent for burning Prison ages.

Spoiler alert, btw.

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Once Veovis was recaptured, a prision age was constructed that functioned properly. Veovis was then imprisioned and the book burned. Of course, we all know Veovis escaped. While the Descriptive Book was indeed burned, it was highly unusual to be done.

end of spoiler

The reasons by which it has been said in this forum that no two linking books could ever be exactly alike also make each unique linking book unstable. Meaning that slight changes in the world described would divert the link to another world.

Also, I sense some confusion in the distinction between a description book and a linking book. The last must be rough in details by definition.

Besides, low probability is NOT zero probability and thus, unlikely is not the same as impossible.

LOL :rolleyes:

I don't suspect Atrus burned the books to prevent rescue, I suspect he burned them to prevent others from being trapped with the brothers or trying to cause harm to the brothers.

But then again, Cyan doesn't tell us 100% of the facts. so....

Shorah, pmfatima & Klvino!

Your arguments are, certainly, convincing. The more you analyze this question, or call it problem, or what you like, the more possibilites arise, and very few make the things clearer.

My very own position is that I believe what I have seen, and the adventures I have lived, in this case virtually, in a book or running a computer game. As a scientist, I admit that there may be more behind the facts we all know.

I accept Linking Books, since I have "used" them. I accept the existence of Descriptive Books because Atrus told me so. Atrus may have burned the red and blue books, but I didn't see it, and he didn't say so.

As a Myst Fan, I did choose, by my own freedom, not to try to understand it all, nor to get truth particles from other sources than those I have paid for: Books and CDs.

And, Klvino, you are absolutely right in saying that Cyan does not tell us all. And why not? Well, the answer is easy: How could they? Remember: We are discussing strictly about pure FICTION!

This post has been edited by Leo'Ri: Jul 29 2003, 08:06 AM

Writing changes into the Book itself, however, will more often than not (but not always) cause the link to shift to a new Age, because you've changed the parameters of the description

Actually, the only time we've seen that happen in when Gehn erased a change he had made. Presumably you can make as many changes to an age after the first link as you want, but you can't directly undo anything without setting up a contradiction (which would tear the age apart anyway) or shifting the link to a different age like Gehn did.

What happens when you pull pages out of a book? When pages were pulled out from the Prison Ages Sirrus and Achenar were trapped in, it made their connection hazy.

And, when in a Prison Age, can you look out of the 'window' like you could at the end if you switched places with one of the brothers?

Do Prison Ages only hold one person? So that if you place your hand on the panel of a currently occupied Prison Age, it switches you with that person?

And also, how does the book magically repair itself when you put the page in the book? It just melds itself together.

Hmmmm....

[speculation]
The prison books were flawed Linking Books, that were unable to complete a connection and transfer their user between Ages (unable because there WAS no Age to link to, or for some reason of deliberately faulty or incomplete writitng). The total black screens in Myst and Riven that you see when you trap yourself seem to suggest that a victim of the traps was held in the Link itself (and I seem to recall Atrus making reference to "the void of the Link", though I can't substantiate that at the moment).

So if one uses the analogy of Books as a bridge between worlds, Sirrus and Achenar would have been standing on their respective bridges at the time of burning (hehe). While I don't think they would have been aware of or suffered in the physical flames destroying their prisons, the brothers would be effectively dead. If you'll permit me the use of a Star Trek metaphor, burning the Prison Books is like shutting down the transporter system while a person is in transit - emptying the pattern buffer and venting their matter stream into space.

As for actually burning the books, I prefer to imagine Atrus writing a couple of special pages that cause the Books to self-destruct when they were inserted. Bug he could just as well taken a flamethrower to them : p

One other thing... game evidence suggests that there is no perception of time from inside a Prison Book (ie, you trap yourself in the Moiety Age (name? I forget), and a few subjective seconds later, Gehn is opening the book to gloat. This fits the idea of someone in the Link being in limbo, not located in any world - and should the link be destroyed, that condition would become permanent.

Sucks to be Sirrus and Achenar.

Anyway, here's a stranger's take on the matter. Y'all can email me ay nuez_jr@hotmail.com; put the word "xyzzy" anywhere in the subject line to get past my spam-filtering.

if the age existed before the link was written to it, then how did atrus write the ship into the stoneship age in myst. I read in the stoneship journal on myst that he wrote it in after he had been to the age

Stoneship took advantage of a quantum mechanical quirk which functions on a level with the Infinite Improbability Drive. For those unfamiliar with the concept (taken from Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy), it is an engine that makes events which are infinitely improbable (such as a nuclear warhead spontaneously turning into a potted plant) occur. While the probability of an entire ship appearing in a position wherein it seems to be molded into the rock surrounding it is pretty much nil, writing the object into the book would cause the ship to appear while maintaining the Age's stability, so long as it had not previously been observed that said ship could not have spontaneously appeared regardless of the odds.

If your head hurts, that means this is making sense .

I now understand that
and my congrats on being well read.
I am currently considering adding references to non-myst books and sources to explain myst concepts

here i'll try it
"ewwy gewwy was a worm a goey worm was he,
he sat upon a railroad track a train he did not see,
Ewwy Gewwy!"freakazoid-in arms way
This is very important to the fall of d'ni
freakazoid was canceled due to it being deamed "too silly" by fat network executives
so perhaps some d'ni had a good sense of humor and wrote a show based on the d'ni civilization, and a fat network executive decided that it was "too silly" and canceled it and did not put it into sydication, causeing the fall of d'ni

how was that ?
good?
bad?
silly?
freaky?
zany?

the correct answer was freaky, as my reference was to freakaziod

I think i know what happened to Sirrus and Achenar. After watching the Myst IV: Revelation trailer (possible spoilers ahead concerning Myst IV), i saw in the trailer, that two books were shown: A red, and a blue. Then, i saw the text: Every family has a secret, this family has two. Then i realized this game had something to do with Sirrus And Achenar, someway. At the main page of www.mystrevelation.com i saw the text: Solve the mystery of two mad brothers.

That s why im pretty sure they are the main factor in Myst IV. So thats not really what happened to them, only that i think they'll return.. More powerful than ever.....

Exziler is right Myst 4 is all about Sirrus and Achenar!
I wonder what the 2 secrets are!

Also I saw somewhere (I forget where) that you must save Yeesha (I think) I wonder why

Trap Books, like the ones Sirrus, Achenar, and Gehn are in, are a simplification of Prison Ages made to keep the gameplay simple. In the historical documentation, the three were trapped in Prison Ages, which are simply regular Ages with no link back.

Burning a Book does nothing to the Age itself, just like burning a bridge does nothing to the opposite shore, you just can't get there anymore. So, the brothers are just stuck in these other Ages with no way home and no way to ever be rescued.

Exactly,

However, if a Book is being Destroyed (say in Fire like in the Book of Ti'ana) Anny affects to the age would be made, scortch marks would cause Fissures in the age it's self, possibly making the age unstable at all.
Sirrus and Anchenar are still well Alive, just traped in their Age...

The only thing that affects an Age is the special ink used to Write the Books with. Burning the Book merely severs the bridge, it does no damage to the Age itself.

Ok, I'm going to do my best to answer these in cronological order. First of all, there may be spoilers ahead concerning Myst IV. That said: One thing I've often wondered is whetehr it's the intention or the words themselves that create the book. What I mean is, if the intention (the fact that you think this word means that and this words means something else) is what forms the link, than the way you write has no bearing, but if the words are what make the link, and not the intent, than the way you write is very important. So, you write say, the symbol for island one way in this age book, and in this age book you write it another, and the islands are affected because of the way you wrote it. Moving on. Yes, I believe Sirrus and Achenar are still accessible, due to some considerations of the clues and some info ina a trailer. First, in one of the trailers, I saw both Sirrus and Achenar. Hmm. Second, in another trailer a high security device was holding (dun dun dunn) a pair of large red and blue books. THe emphasis here is on "large." The books looked different from the red and blue books in Myst, so my conclusion is: these are the descriptive books to the prison ages. Of course, that begs the question of why Sirrus would go in one of the ages, and Achenar another, but that's beside the point. Also, in a trailer this guy at E3 said something along the lines of "we wanted fans to be able to see the ages that the brothers wrote." So presumably, most of the game takes place on ages that they wrote. I'm not sure if I missed anythinf, so if I did, just PM me and I'll try to clear up my theories for you.