Ammendum
I posted here that I was stepping down as a moderator on MOUL. I did so out of a sense of professionalism, since I felt that it was inappropriate to complain about people I was in charge of fairly moderating on the forum, and wanted to avoid any perception of bias or retribution going forward. However, given that everyone seems to think I’m still a nice guy, and that I’ve been asked not to step down by the other mods, I’ve decided to come at this from a different direction instead: I will be staying on at MOUL as a mod, in the interests of better communication and cooperation. If anyone, slacker or otherwise, wants to discuss something that is related to moderation, you can contact me privately and we will discuss it. I may have burned a few bridges here with my comments about people’s behavior, but I am not above building new ones. I meant what I said when I talked about this community needing more cooperation, trust, and understanding. To that end, I am willing to work with people. Shocking, I know, but I mean it. Being one of the “oldbies” around here (if not by age then almost certainly by seniority ;)), I should probably be leading by example, and so if I’m up on my soapbox advocating cooperation, common decency, direct resolution of personal problems, and all that, then I’d better be willing to walk the walk. I’m willing to let bygones be bygones; holding grudges is for people with stronger stomachs than mine.
The original UU is well behind us, for good or ill, and MOUL is shutting down in a month and a half. What this community does to survive after that is up to all of us, and as I’ve said before, I’m in this for the long haul. I’m also willing to accept that people have different opinions on a vast number of things and still be able to sit next to each other at a table without punching each other. But there has to be cooperation from both sides for that to happen. I’m willing to take that first step; offering my hand in mutual not-hating-each-other, if not friendship (I guess we’ll see how it goes) in the interests of building a better community. Are you?
February 21st, 2008 at 6:11 am
Well, I think you are wise to listen to your friends, I agree with them. There was no reason for you to step down, and the whole mess was a lack of communication that got out of hand. I know what it is like to run a forum, and the good and the bad that comes with it. You are not going to please everyone all of the time, but if you are fair and just in your decisions, people will respect your judgment. Some are not going to like your decisions, that is for sure. But to the people that count, if you do the right thing, they will support you. We all make mistakes, nobody is perfect. But if people can not realize that it takes two to tango, and that someone has to initiate the dance in the first place for it to even happen, you are never going to be able to solve a problem. It is a basic concept in troubleshooting. You can patch over something with baling wire, toothpicks and bubble gum, and it may work for a while longer. But it is going to fail again because the underlying problem is not solved. In other words, sweeping things under the carpet only leads to big lumps that you and everyone else trips over. Not very fun, eh?
You have to get to the root of the problem to solve it, and if the root refuses to recognize that it is the problem, you end up having to make a tough judgment call that is not going to please someone (usually the root). When I worked as a shift line supervisor, I learned not to play favorites with my workers. I found that if I treated everyone fairly and equally, nobody could impose on me to overlook something or give them an advantage over their fellow workers. I took this to the point that I did not even stop at the bar that everyone liked to go to after work, I felt that fraternizing with my people would only weaken my position. I made good friends with a few of my fellow people, but they were strictly after hours friendships. One friend that I got hired on to my crew I ended up having to fire a few months later. We were no longer friends afterward, but he was caught red handed stealing from the company. End of that story. It was tough, but it had to be done.
There is a strong perception (rightly or wrongly) in the community that there is some favoritism going on. That in itself is not really a problem because that is the way it is in small communities, it is who you know that counts. But when you combine favoritism and a perception of it being used by Cyan then you end up with some complications. Sure, it is easy to say ‘Naah, there is no such thing going on’, but that does not change the perception one bit. If anything, you then become a part of the problem (in the view of the accuser). Dealing with this issue is going to be touchy, I will guarantee you that. But it exists, and until it is addressed in one way or another, the perception (rightly or wrongly) is not going to go away. Like any other problem, given the right conditions, it will only grow.
One of the reasons I kept rules at our forum to a minimum was that some people thrive on pointing out who the latest rule-breaker is. If you have more than a few of those types on your board, they can make life miserable very fast. They mean well, and some have legitimate gripes, but there are some that just want to be a pain in the ass to anyone they can. By keeping the rules to a minimum, it keeps those types at bay. If you reach a point that a rule needs to be made, make it then. Any sooner and you end up wasting time writing rules that in the end are only going to drive you nuts.
Thank you for the well thought out post, it is a much better one than what I have read recently.
At one time, the whole community got along pretty well in UU. I believe that truces (real ones, no fingers crossed) and full-fledged peace accords could lead to peace once again in the community. Truces in the cases where nothing is going to be resolved, just a cessation (backbiting included) of hostilities, and peace accords where differences are settled. It can be done if people insist on doing it. All it takes is action.
One thing I hear constantly in the Myst/Uru community are the ‘purists’ who have no willingness to allow other viewpoints in the game. Anything that does not meet with their approval is scorned. This is not going to grow a community. Diversity is the key to any community that grows and thrives. If everyone is in lockstep, there is no life, no vitality, no variety to the personalities. A strong, vibrant community is one that welcomes all to a common goal. People are different, and expecting to gather a large number of them together and not have problems to iron out is delusional. Being in a top spot means that you have to make the tough decisions, decisions that you will have to stand behind when you are right, and decisions that you will have to reconsider because you were wrong. Some decisions may have to be made against someone you consider a close friend, and it may even cost you that friend. You have to ask yourself if you can shoulder that burden, because it is a burden, there is no other way to put it. On days that things go well and you accomplish what you want, those are the good days. On the days that things go bad and you have to do something that you wish you did not have to, those are going to be the tough ones. Rule of thumb is until messes are cleaned up, you will have more bad days than good ones. I know.
You literally juggle your duties, and hope that you don’t drop a pin while doing so. You have an audience, and they are watching you. You fumbled and dropped a pin, but there is no reason that you can’t pick it up and continue on. Just make sure that you have the will and fortitude to do so. Being a leader is a tough job to do well. You have to constantly remind yourself that you are putting yourself out there as an example to the community, and you have standards that you have to maintain. You are a leader, so lead.
Peace.
February 21st, 2008 at 6:47 am
About the Steam Room, it is viewable by members only at the request of others (essjay being one notable) who asked that we make it less visible. I did not have to do this, but I finally decided that I could live with that. The problem is not the Steam Room itself, it is the fact that just about every single Myst/Uru forum is usually heavily moderated. Like it or not, there are some problems that are not addressed because one party chooses not to address it, leaving the other party hanging. When people find out that they can post in there and state their mind, they do so. Like it or not, people need a place to vent sometimes. It was not meant as a place to vent about Uru, but rather a place to just rant about anything that is bugging someone. If you read it, it is both.
Like I have said, I have been away from Myst/Uru for over a year, and you can ask my family, I have been about as far away as a person can get. I have stayed out of everything completely. But I come back and I quickly find out that things are pretty much the same as when I left. Nothing solved, and only more problems have been generated. In reading the Steam Room complaints about MO:UL moderating, I can see that there are some problems that need to be dealt with. I can see some of the problems have a common root, which means that if you solve the root problem, you will solve many other problems at the same time. Some of the problems are ones that have snowballed from one problem to another, growing in to an ever larger problem.
If you join and go in the Steam Room, you are not ’spying’. That term is reserved for people who have joined (usually using an incog name, but IP backtracking using IP data from our old forum helps us identify who is who), go in there and never post. They just pop in, read, and leave. If something is in there that they did not like, everyone hears about it real fast. The community has a great network in place to disseminate this info.
If anything, maybe you can join and go in and review the issues that some have. Maybe you will be able to see a resolution to them by looking at them ‘uncensored’, or if someone is sprouting BS you can call them on it and point out that being unreasonable does not solve anything for anyone. You could talk to other mods about what you see and hear, and maybe that might help to find a way to resolve a problem.
When there are no issues in the community that requires the use of the Steam Room, it can actually be a pretty funny place to read up on what it getting everyone else’s goat that day.
Remember, it takes two to tango. You can’t fight very much by yourself, and no community problem is as easy as a one person solution. Like they say, if there is smoke, there is usually fire close by. The wise person tries to put the fire out but good.
The Steam Room stays Alahmnat. It handles the bad but we have had good come out of it too. It has potential just because it lets people say what is on their mind. In there, they know there is a chance that someone will listen to them because they feel that elsewhere they are being ignored. Will you care enough to lend your ear to see if you can solve a problem?
Think about it.
February 21st, 2008 at 11:39 am
Well put Alahmnat. Thank you. And after I have been biting my tongue and mulling around novel lenght posts to write in all those steaming places out there (btw, this is me: http://xkcd.com/386/ ), reading your and PS’ reponses finally gave me an idea what I could do. And it’s so simple.
February 21st, 2008 at 3:09 pm
Bravo. As a long-time member of this community, I appreciate the above posts by Alahmnat and Pap Smurf. I am glad Al is staying on as MOUL mod, and that there is a better understanding of the give and take involved in nurturing a community.
Let’s get back to having fun. I would also like to apologize for any comments I’ve made in the last few days that attacked anybody personally.
February 21st, 2008 at 4:30 pm
Its quite intresting reading all this, personally nothings been solved.
Lets face it, I got bored of reading Papa Smurfs essays and personally alahmnat just gave in.
The root of the problem has been explained, papa smurf is not accepting what people are saying about him, slackers, etc … while the otherside lost focus and looked for a easy route out of the problem
Read through all this dirt that you been using to dig yourselves holes with and face the issues in front of you.
February 21st, 2008 at 5:57 pm
nothing gets solved though forcing conflict. both parties need to step back and assess what is happening and also allow insight from a third (external) party. Dismissing the views of one side and assuming the other is just wimping out only shows that some are trying to push a fight or force a resolve that suits them.
This can be sorted peacefully, and those steps have been taken.. let them continue so we can survive as a community even if uru/moul becomes a lost memory.
February 21st, 2008 at 7:43 pm
Dark, what is your solution? Or do you even see one? I am seriously asking you this question, I am not being flippant about it.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:24 pm
Don’t ask DarK. You have the answer in your very own hands. You people have behaved like a fox in a hen house. If you want respect you have to show respect. Change your habits and see what happens.
February 21st, 2008 at 9:45 pm
You could start by asking yourself why so many very different people from so many corners of the Uru-verse dislike you, and not just dismiss it as some ‘we’ve been wronged!’ anti-Slacker conspiracy.
Could it be that there is some truth to the tales of harassment and goading and nastyness and vendettas and smear campaigns and backtracking and backstabbing and ganging up and harassment? That maybe people aren’t just making this shyte up? That your reputation isn’t just based on ‘misunderstandings’ and ‘misrepresentations’?
I’m not being flippant here, either. The first thing you peeps, each of you, need to do is really look in the mirror and ask yourself if the things the Slackers have done over the years are really, truly, OK with you, in your gut.
February 21st, 2008 at 10:36 pm
BearFoot, you have made the assumption that every single problem has been caused by ’slackers’. You can not admit that anyone else has made a mistake or deliberately caused a problem. Therefore, your answer is not worth much more than it being your opinion. Until you recognize that it takes two (or more) to tango, problems will never be solved. I could come out and say all the good things that you are demanding, and it will not change one mind among those we know to be troublemakers. If anything, they would celebrate a win (evidenced by Dark and his obsession with ‘losing’ because Alahmnat ‘gave in’) and keep right on with the backstabbing.
No thank you. There is no ‘one person/group’ solution to the problems in this community. It took a community to get in to this mess, and it will take one to get out of it.
Neeah, Slackers is a very small group of people. Very small, yet it has been ascribed this almost mystical power to destroy a complete community and ruin people. Anyone who believes this meme is a complete fool. Anyone who reads the recorded history on our old UU forum can draw their own conclusions, but due to the overactive mouths that love to do nothing but go around and smear ’slackers’ being very active in the community and operating in small, tightly knit groups that they maintain a cross membership in, we really never stood much of a chance. I believe that this ‘taint’ has spread to the point that it has even colored the community managers view due to his interaction with the troublemakers or those that they have have unduly influenced.
I am a realist trying to operate in a community where some influential people want to create their own reality, and myself and others out there are not drinking the kool-aid.
I have to point out that there are still no specific charges, just this nebulous ’slacker’ person with multiple personalities being accused of running around causing mayhem. Nothing specific by those demanding action, which makes it practically impossible to find a solution.
Tomala received an apology from GreyDragon this morning. I will go out on a limb and state that after reading it (my daughter invited me to do so), I can safely state that in my opinion, Alahmnat’s rant that started this whole mess was fed by the events that led up to her banning. He is arguing that a lot more transpired up to the point of her banning, and that was not the problem. But from the way GreyDragon worded it, they were upset because they thought Tomala was deliberately jerking them around. GreyDragon assumed that the mod(s) involved in dealing with the ‘problem’ with her had done their job and contacted her. These errors (multiple actions taken on their part and not once contacting with the ‘offender’) led each side (GD & mod(s)) to ‘feed’ each other, furthering their degree of irritation with Tomala. This led to the outburst by Alahmnat, and of this I am convinced. GreyDragon was truly irritated, and stated so. I am sure that it upset Alahmnat to see GD upset, and he felt he had to say something.
From what I have read on our forum of the modding ‘problems’ over at MO:UL, a lot of it is from a lack of communication on the part of the mods. Much of it is one event that runs into another without proper resolution, and it snowballs and feeds on itself. In a way, the mods are being their own worst enemy. IreenQuench took the step to join the Steam Room today (thank you very much Ireen!) and let people there know that if they have a problem with the MO:UL forum or the mods that is not resolved, to please contact her and she would see what she could do for them.
Wow! What a novel concept! Listen to complaints and deal with them. If someone in the Steam Room tries to have Ireen moderate a problem they are having and they are unreasonable in their expectations of a solution, I will be the first one to speak up and tell the person to get real. I am sure that others in the Steam Room will do the same. It is far from an echo chamber, I can tell you that. The zipped lip, no talkie-talkie about moderating at MO:UL makes it difficult for some who feel that they have not been treated fairly. Call the Steam Room a second chance.
In closing, I have to say that I think some of you hate just because it makes you feel good. Some of the things said in this blog (and in other places) are just hate-filled screeds aimed at the nebulous ’slackers’, devoid of any humanity or understanding. I don’t hate you, I feel sorry for you. But that just pisses you off more, right? Right.
You can not find a solution as long as you insist on being a part of the problem.
February 22nd, 2008 at 12:36 am
Would you like specifics?
Did you, or did you not, personally take the time and effort to search through the internet for information on a respected community member, and use that information as ‘proof’ of their unfitness, and evidence of the moral degredation of UU? Did you or did you not then claim you’d done nothing wrong by saying the information was ‘public’? Did you ever say you were sorry to them, for starting a deliberate smear campaign?
When another, clearly controversial, member of the community ran afoul of the UU leadership, you spent a whole heck of a lot of effort condemning them, and anyone else who called their guilt into question, while Cyan remained silent. However, when one of your own was banned BY CYAN, you remained oddly silent. Why?
And what about the Slackers members who made their way to another forum, and then reported back to Slackers everything that was said or done, and then made deliberate efforts to goad the people of the other forum into anger?
And those are just the tip of the iceberg of the things I remember being involved in, myself. But, of course, because none of us felt like keeping chat logs for years on end, you’ll deny that any of these things happened.
You just keep hiding behind that ‘there’s no proof’ shield, and it shows that you don’t want to be part of the solution, either.
February 22nd, 2008 at 2:21 am
I thought this was over with already? Apparently not, there are still those who would rather continue goading at the topic it would seem.
Look, you can go along believing whatever you believe. It’s not going to change much of anything. I mean, who would believe a Slacker?
Remained oddly silent? It’s not like we didn’t have something to say about it. But I guess it’s because that’s Steam room content. You’re not a member of the Slacker’s forum, I mean, who would be caught dead with a Slacker?
Did I mention Tomala has quite a few Greeter friends in Uru, not to mention a few UO friends? Oh! And she also has an aunt who works at Cyan as well as a friend on the Slacker’s forum. So if she has friends from other corners of the community, she can’t be as bad as you say.
Only time I recall PS hounding down a member was when that person performed an illegal operation on the shard or was being troublesome. This usually ended with banning. But if you have any information to prove otherwise, prove me wrong. Proof is the steel lining that makes any statement strong. Without proof, a statement is pretty hard to believe.
“Tip of the iceberg of thing you recall being involved in”? Oh! Does that mean you have involved yourself with Slacker’s at one point? So then, if you hate the Slacker’s so much, why wouldn’t you have kept chatlogs?
Must this continue? Seriously. Bury whatever grudges you held in the past. The present has enough stress without them. You can continue goading at us all you like. Words don’t have the power to shatter walls. Spoken or written.
February 22nd, 2008 at 2:30 am
“Did you, or did you not, personally take the time and effort to search through the internet for information on a respected community member, and use that information as ‘proof’ of their unfitness, and evidence of the moral degredation of UU? Did you or did you not then claim you’d done nothing wrong by saying the information was ‘public’? Did you ever say you were sorry to them, for starting a deliberate smear campaign?”
I did NOT specifically search for information on the person in question. In fact, I came across it way before there was any controversy when I was looking for stuff related to Myst/Uru on Altavista. I like to see what turns up using different myst/uru based search criteria, and I still do the same thing to this day. It is how I came across Lonelyto25’s early Uru pics and other gems like that. I know a lot about this community just based on doing searches like that. Hell, it is on the damn internet! What am I supposed to do, just ignore stuff that piques my interest?
I used this person as a poster child for the problems that we were facing at the hands of them and their friends. I attributed the behavior exhibited to what I had learned, and I think it was a damn accurate assessment. Hey, I did not start the fight that we were in at the time (see my next response below). They came to me, to my forum, to my shard, and nobody had to put a gun to their head to do it. But I damn near had to put one to their heads to get them to leave. In fact, by the time I wrote that I was sick and tired of the non-stop berating and fighting that was happening on my forum. I already know of the shitstorm that was raised by some who wrote to Cyan about that post. Cyan did nothing about it because we did not have any relationship beyond the license I had to run the shard, and it took place on a private forum. Legalese won the day. But you people tried, I will give you that much. I would like to say more about what happened in the background, but I will not. Suffice it to say that Cyan could have cared less about what I said. They had nothing to do with it, nor did they want to.
These people wanted to keep the brawl going until I backed down, and I brought it to the only end I could. They only have themselves to blame for my actions. If they had left me alone, none of this would have happened. I did not go to them, they came to me. That is why I keep the old forum up to this day. For all to peruse and learn from. There are some good lessons in there.
“When another, clearly controversial, member of the community ran afoul of the UU leadership, you spent a whole heck of a lot of effort condemning them, and anyone else who called their guilt into question, while Cyan remained silent. However, when one of your own was banned BY CYAN, you remained oddly silent. Why?”
You mean when this person ran a hacked UserKI on my shard (and on at least one other), was caught red handed and they refused to admit that they were wrong? Finally, the root of the problem! Wow, that came faster than I thought it would! You are talking about when I banned him, then some other shard owners banned him, right? Then the ‘gang’ descended on me and tried to verbally beat me into submission and to back off? There never was any question of his guilt, believe me. No doubt at all. But he sure did his damnedest to obfuscate and mislead everyone else into believing that he had been wronged.
Heck, I even got an apology from another shard owner who stood up for him and believed him. He wrote me out of the blue and apologized for all of the trouble I had over it and he admitted that the hacker was nothing but trouble and out for himself. I still have it, and I am very thankful to the shard owner for saying what he did. As this shard owner is still in the community, and very active, I will not divulge that name. If he wishes to, he is free to do so. The shard owner and I have no problems between us, and I think very highly of him and of what he has done for the community.
Regarding Cyan banning someone and me staying quiet, what are you talking about? Tomala getting banned? Other than that, that is the only thing that comes to mind to me. If that is the case, Tomala speaks quite well for herself, and I think she has said plenty already. If you read over at our forum, you would see that I have too, but that is beside the point. If you are not talking about Tomala, who are you talking about?
“And what about the Slackers members who made their way to another forum, and then reported back to Slackers everything that was said or done, and then made deliberate efforts to goad the people of the other forum into anger?”
Which forum are you talking about, the old Tapestry forum or the secret one that had people in it that were planning the crap they were going to pull on us at our forum? Luckily, one of the ‘inner circle’ forwarded me copies of what had been going on, names and all. With the information I had been given, I pushed back, hard, and that place folded up shop. If you are talking about Tapestry forum, after ‘hostilities’ broke out Tomala and I never returned to the place. But we sure read it a lot as it was quite informative. That is how we found out that we were being called the “Ebola” of the Uru community, among other similar pleasantries exchanged there. Nope, nothing hostile to see there, right? Right. Anyone who posted over at Tapestry did so as their own person and of their own volition, not as a representative of mine or Slacker’s. They were speaking for themselves, and there is nothing more to it than that. Trying to hold me responsible for the opinions of others is just dumb, but good try.
Oh, by the way, if you have proof of your allegations of rabble rousing on my behalf, please feel free to post them. I have a lot of material that has not seen the light of day, and you just might give me a chance to put it to good use.
Next?
February 22nd, 2008 at 4:02 am
PapaSmurf - your inability to admit you’ve personally made any mistake is what makes me very much dislike your attitude. Your daughter Tomala, and her inability to admit she may have been wrong is very much a part of what I dislike about her attitude. BAD’s attitude is also what sticks in my craw. He laughs off things. He doesn’t grudgingly admit that yeah, he made some big mistakes.
Learn some humility. Period.
There, slamming my head into that concrete wall felt so good.
February 22nd, 2008 at 8:54 am
Why can’t you people let this go? Y’all are talking about UU stuff like it happened last week. The only folks who can’t move on are those who prefer the hatred of the past to take the fun out of the present. That is pitiful. Over the last three blogs on Alahmnat’s Blog, if somebody were to read through the posts from the “I hate Slackers” and the “Slackers aren’t Beezelbub” groups, I think you’d be surprised to see who come off as the jerks here (and here’s a hint, it’s not the Slackers). But that would take looking at something objectively.
For some reason DarK assumes that Alahmnat “just gave in”. Either that is just DarK’s opinion, or Alahmnat told him such. If Alahmnat told him that he just gave in, but encouraged the rest of you to continue the fight, then that was as cowardly as the original misdirected post. Personally, I think Alahmnat saw that this was a mistake and tried to end it. The rest of you seem to know better, or at least have the power to read minds. The previous two Blogs were closed, as it appeared (to me at least) that this Ammendum Blog was to put an end to a flare up caused by a big misunderstanding. For some reason DarK, Neeah the Red, BearFoot & Deb Johnson feel the need to keep this unpleasantness going. The only solution y’all feel will heal the community is for Slackers to leave the community.
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:02 am
SSDD. There’s nothing wrong with anything you guys ever do, and it doesn’t matter who you hurt in the process, you’re always on the side of good.
Oh well, I’ve got a tan to work on in Gira before I can’t get there anymore. And like every other time, you’ll all head back to your Branch Slackvidian compound, and hang out there until you get wriled up again.
Good on you Ahlamnat for extending the white flag. We’ll see how long it lasts this time.
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:06 am
Perhaps there is a very simple reason why this issue keeps cropping up. It is because a vast number of people feel justified in their indignation. Over the course of a membership in a community a certain behaviour is noted in a persons posts. Their tone, their spelling, their diction, their belligerent stance (or not), and their ability to show humility, when necessary. All of this is taken into account when one comes to thinking of a persona online. You can’t simply sweep what’s “old” under the rug. All of it comes into play for a person’s “character” in a community. Good or bad. You cannot isolate behaviours just because you choose to do so.
The only path forward I see is to have both parties steep down from their soapboxes, meeting in the middle on common ground, and both saying they’re sorry for things. I see one person doing that and his name is Alahmnat. Good for you, Al. I’m proud of you. Where’s the other parties? Who’s going to be a peace-maker, and honestly *TRY* to make amends to heal this rift.
‘Cause it obviously is not going to go away. Chuckles, I’m horrified at your defence. Please, consider me no longer your “friend” until you’re ready to concede that yes, amends must be made by both sides.
Reconciliation begins when both sides start to concede things.
February 22nd, 2008 at 11:36 am
Wow Deb.
How long have you been friends with Chuckles? Your willing to drop him like an old hat that quick just because he is pleading for you to use reason, and stop berating us.
That’s cold.
We have never stated that we haven’t made any mistakes. We are saying that we are not solely to blame for all the ills of the Uru community. Which is what you are saying exactly.
One observation I see is that you set up expectations in your posts about how PS will respond, and when he does respond (and the response doesn’t match your expectations) you switch gears to another point setting up more expectations. Wash, rinse, repeat.
Your posts here are immature, and manipulative. That is why i wished to stop discussing this with you.
Alahmnat,
I am glad that you are willing to work this out. I am as well.
I have to tell you that we can not settle this here without you reading the Steam Room. Sorry, but if you continue to be insufficiently informed about what we have said, you’ll never be able to have a credible discussion about it, with us.
If you just continue to go by word of mouth and from the responses here, you will never understand what really transpired. The people you are discussing this stuff with have a slight bias.
So far you haven’t said anything I have found offensive, it is just you talk from one side of the story, and it reads like the side you are listening too doesn’t want you to know about a lot of things.
There is no excuse for ignorance when all the information you need is readily available.
February 22nd, 2008 at 3:54 pm
Lovely!
Chickles … Go back and read the post again, and pick out the word, “PERSONALLY” in the post, you’ve walked in slung mud, and totally lost the point.
Papa … I’m happy to say you have a god complex Papa … Serriously can you not see nothing wrong with what you have writen?
Personally what gives you the right to use “this person as a poster child” what gives you the right to humiliate a person because of their background. In my eyes nothing gives any other human being a right to do this no matter what issues surround the reason, I consider what you preformed to be down right discraceful. A good admin would have banned them and let it be, further baiting from these people should have been ignored.
You’ve used a person for your selfish gains, to build your Ivory tower, which sadly you now have me supporting by me having to respond to you AGAIN. You are not listening, you fight what you think will take away your power, or impove it.
You claim you are holding all the cards by having dirt on people, and you are using it as a weapon to strenghten your possition, and all this you have mentioned in your own posts, these are all your own admissions.
You were a bad shard admin, becasue you where unable to tolarate difference and change, in the past you have accused people of the same, however when you see it benifits you ignore it and let it happen. When it hinders you, you fight it, a normal human instinct that the vast majority can control.
I’m involved here because of the post made on my thread at the MOUL forums, I was slightly annoyed at the fact that you turned up and suddenly slung mud around AGAIN. I tried to kerb it quickly but you kept posting, finally something happened, of which I don’t have a clear view of at the moment, again this is/was all happening behind closed doors.
This is the public part of this, and personally you’ve spilled these issues to the MOUL forums, and then to here as Alahmnat as blew a fuse about it.
Here is the solution …
Ask why over the years you have not listened to anyone, and continue to have the attitude of “Your wrong, I’m right, I have a shard, You don’t … Listen to me … look at me … ! ”
From where I am sitting, you’ve dug yourself in, and unless you turn round and respect the people around you for telling you that you have a problem you need to solve, you are constantly going to see this again and again.
To let you know, I’ve been done with Uru since the first few seasons of MOUL, I don’t care what happens to you, Uru, the rest of the motley crew. I’m taking part here for my own and possibly sick amusement, to see if my suppicions at the time were correct.
I’m Done, this is taking too much of my time away!
February 22nd, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Deb, if you must scratch me off your list of friends due to my defense of my friends the Slackers, then so be it. The foul and vitriolic posting in these three Blogs has demonstrated to me that there is too much hatred int his community, with most of it coming from one side. I kept quiet several years ago while this was going on, as I had (and as far as I knew still do) many close friends directly involved from both sides. I have managed to keep those friendships despite my divided allegiance. I’m sorry that your inability to co-exist with Slackers will cost me your friendship, but I must stand by my observations in these Blogs. I don’t feel friendship should be conditional on who one’s friends are. My posting in this whole mess is one of attacking the hatred and intolerance in this community.
As I said earlier, except for some unhappiness due to skirmishes due to how the MOUL forums have been moderated, I have seen no trouble out of Slackers for several years. I have read in The Steam Room evidence that most of the principals in the UU conflict had put this aside. I’m not sure what additional amends you feel they need to admit to.
DarK, I noticed your qualifier “personally”, which pretty much discounts the sincerity of Alahmnat’s post, when it appeared that he was attempting to end this mess.
From reading Alahmnat’s post in this thread, I understood him to say he would try to put grudges behind him and to try to have better cooperation in moderating of the MOUL forums. Another MOUL moderator has made herself available to help avoid future moderating issues.
What I don’t understand is why there is still a conflict here. I don’t feel the need to relive 2 to 3 year old conflicts. Life is too short, and Uru Live is too short.
Cie la vie
February 22nd, 2008 at 9:10 pm
What exactly do you mean by my inability to apologize? Are you referring to me being banned at the MOUL forum and not apologizing for my mistake? Because if that’s the case, GD apologized to me in PM and said that I shouldn’t have been banned and that it was all a misunderstanding as he made the assumption that I was already contacted by moderators each time, and I apologized for not having the foresight to know that my signature wasn’t family friendly, as I looked at the signature as something from a kids show with a twist of adult humor. As far as I’m concerned that situation has been resolved and have no issues with greydragon. So your assessment regarding my inability to apologize for doing wrong is incorrect. I did make a mistake, I didn’t know what I did exactly, but when GD pointed out to me personally what I did, I apologized for it. That\’s the end of that.
Maybe it’s a sign that peace will be made soon… I can hope anyway…
February 22nd, 2008 at 10:40 pm
Neeah, your answer is as glib as I expected. No shock there. Good bye.
“PapaSmurf - your inability to admit you’ve personally made any mistake is what makes me very much dislike your attitude. Your daughter Tomala, and her inability to admit she may have been wrong is very much a part of what I dislike about her attitude. BAD’s attitude is also what sticks in my craw. He laughs off things. He doesn’t grudgingly admit that yeah, he made some big mistakes.”
Deb, if you think that I am unable to admit when I am wrong then you really do not know me at all. I am not going going to waste any more time with that line of bull. By the way, what exactly is your personal beef with me, or anyone else at Slacker’s for that matter? What did we do to YOU? I would really like to see that answer. Please?
You want reconciliation Deb? Well, the way I see it is that when the party who realizes that they started this mess steps forward and admits their mistakes, then we can talk. Until then, forget it. Since I already know that the old goat will never admit that they were wrong, I guess that this is where we stay.
I do find it very telling how quickly you are willing to drop Chuckles as a ‘friend’ (BTW, those quote marks are just funny!). I guess for you there is friend, and then there is ‘friend’? Interesting that you would put it the way you did. With ‘friends’ like you, who the hell needs an enemy? I have friends that I disagree with, as do many normal, emotionally healthy people out there. When you are secure in your own person, you do not need to surround yourself with a bunch of ‘yes’ friends. It is healthy to agree to disagree with your friends, it is NORMAL. But I see that you expect your ‘friends’ to march in lockstep with you, so you will not be ‘friends’ with people who disagree with you. Now that is just creepy.
Deb, you are the poster child for the attitude of the people who are behind this mess. This attitude is: ‘you are with me, or you are against me. You are ‘friend’ or foe’. It is that black & white to you and your ‘friends’. I will bet that this attitude of yours extends all of the way in to the game, and you are sure to make sure that any ‘friends’ you make understand that you will only be ‘friends’ as long as they stay away from the people you hate. Conditional friendship, what a hellish concept.
You have a very unhealthy attitude Deb, and frankly I find it very disturbing and sad. Oh, and on Chuckles observing that you are ranting about stuff from a long time ago, just an FYI for you: The hacker that started this war did his dirty work almost three years ago. Got that? It transpired three years ago! You people are letting the hate eat away at you for this long, and you still refuse to admit that the whole mess started with that one jerk that hacked and got you people to rally around him. This is just sick behavior, you are nurturing hate and embrace it. Disturbing, to say the least.
Dark, the short story with you is that you are pissed that I did not give you access to the AdminKI code. I was making you wait, and I was trying to help you do what was necessary to get others to know you so they would feel comfortable bringing you in on the development. I got sidetracked with the ongoing war, and you disappeared. Ever since then, you have had a clear bias in anything you have posted that is related to us. Sorry, but I am not wasting any more time on you. Too bad that it did not work out for you getting the AdminKI code through me. Your own sick amusement is right on target. Bye.
And with that final note, I bid farewell to this blog post. I know I asked Deb to let me know who over here wronged her and exactly what it was, but I already know the answer to that so there is no need to respond to her.
I will take you at your word Alahmnat, but I have to be honest and say that this mess you dragged up with your rant is going to be in the back of my mind for a long time. I will not hold it against you, but it is not something that I can just erase like it never happened. I have never had a problem with you in the past, and I hope that I will never have a problem with you in the future. I just wish that this had never happened, and I will leave it at that.
One other thing to think about: Start asking those who have a grudge against Slacker’s to specify exactly who at Slacker’s wronged them. Odds are you are going to hear a lot of ‘they did this to that person’, and that will be the extent of it. This hate is being fueled by a few people who actually fought with us, but they have contaminated the minds of others to the point that they think that Slacker’s actually attacked them and react like it. Go ahead, ask around and see what specific issues that someone has with an actual Slacker. Better yet, post your results, I would love to see them.
Pop quiz! Can anyone pinpoint the event that led to the mess that we have in the community today? You must provide proof, no hearsay allowed. Lets see who gets this one right.
February 23rd, 2008 at 12:26 am
Some people who were wronged by the Slackers have left the community. Yes, they were that hurt and humiliated. They will not speak up here. Or ever. Many others just chose to get on with their lives. I do not speak from hearsay. Or about things in a far away past. No need to say more, no need to go into details. Unlike the Slackers I do *not* like to bring up the past. But I am concerned about the future. That is why I chose to speak up. And I say that PapaSmurf is a very dangerous, destructive man. And I see that very same two-faced behavior in some of “his” Slackers army. From all the racket you make, one would think you created Uru on your own, lock, stock & barrel. And it is still your entire property, to do with it as you please. I just pray that Cyan has your number and never lets you loose with any sort of power or shard ever again. If this blog has accomplished that, I will be a happy man. This game and community cannot survive under that sort of mad dictatorship. I am sorry if you do not like that. But, to quote you: Now that the shoe is on the other foot, it is not much fun, is it? Oh well, life plods along.
http://www.mystonline.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=14639&start=26
February 23rd, 2008 at 2:25 am
You say you do not like to bring up the past. Apparently not, if you are continuously forcing the topic. How can you say we like discussing the past, when in truth a) we were not the ones who started this argument to begin with and b) we’re not the ones still prodding at the topic. The only reason that we’re still posting here is because you are still prodding, prodding, prodding. Pretty soon, you’re going to break your finger.
Funny. Manny people are leaving the community now and they mostly say, “people in other groups were not friendly”, “I can’t stand all this over-moderation”. Would you hate to admit this as well? As for the hurt and humiliated ones. Sure, there were those who Papa Smurf either banned or proved them out as the sharks they were. Perhaps there was something they said. However, usually they are the ones who are the bad apples.
Of Course Papa Smurf is a destructive man. Now, why is that? What exactly makes him so destructive? Now there’s something you can ask him. I wonder, could it be because there’s a certain truth in what he says?
With all the racket you’ve stirred here on these blogs, one would think you’re about as destructive as you claim PS out to be. In fact, one would think you single-handedly brought the fall of UU. I am not so positively sure that Cyan is going to re-release Until Uru. But if they do, hey, we’re all aware it’s merely going to be “until” MOUL comes back up again and then they can kick it in the nuts.
Are you implying that Papa Smurf is power hungry. Heh, wouldn’t be the first one. Not since the early UU days when there were those who had Admin KI envy in the community. It was established quite clearly that the Admin KI was nothing more than a toy, and that in some cases Papa Smurf despised owning one. “With great power comes great responsibility”. Of course, it was a bumpy ride ahead.
Under what mad dictatorship? It’s not like the Slacker’s forums are a Nazi march. Now, if you want Nazis, look at the way some mods handle modding over at the MOUL forums. Compared to Slacker’s, we allow free speech. What exactly makes speaking your mind a dictatorship?
February 23rd, 2008 at 2:53 am
I was wondering who\’d invoke Godwin\’s Law first… and somehow I\’m hardly surprised that the finger gets pointed at us; obviously since we don\’t allow the members free reign on the MOUL forums, we must be freedom-hating Nazis. Of course. Now who\’s seeing things in black and white?
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:35 am
Yeah… I agree that the Nazi thing may not have been the best thing to say, considering the topic name. Yet at the same time I find it interesting that out of all the things that have been said here, you have only managed to comment on this?
February 23rd, 2008 at 5:38 am
We do so many bad things on the MOUL forums, we’re so crappy moderators, anyone could do better than us… and in fact we have a whole army of backseat moderators… but very few of them actually have the guts to suggest us what is going wrong and how we could do better. I say suggest: the usual suspects are very keen on *demanding*, either in public or in private; or they throw generic accusations that aren’t really useful as, without solid examples, they cannot really be examined to find if there really was a fault; or they just talk behind our backs, so we don’t even know that they seem to have a problem.
So you got a problem with how we mod? Talk to us, PM us, chat with us - calmly, like reasonable persons in a dialogue: we do listen. But it shouldn’t even be said that, if you start insulting us, you’re not probably going to get much changed. Do *you* listen to people you feel are insulting you? (First person to say ‘Yes, always’ gets eaten by a Bahro for lying)
About the Tomala case and similar, if you get edited but don’t receive a PM, don’t just assume the worst - that we edited you because we hate you and we’re a bunch of tyrants. Before reposting the same thing again (three times and in bigger fonts), you might try sending one of us a PM to check out exactly what happened.
February 23rd, 2008 at 6:36 am
Tomala - how about this? Start with apologizing sincerely for the ruckus you’ve caused on the MOUL forums to the moderators. Something along the lines of this; “I’m sorry for the problems I may have caused, by not asking what was the matter. I’m sorry I just jumped to conclusions.” That’s laying a lovely sign of peace at the feet of the moderators. You have to realize that each of them is a lovely human being behind that keyboard. Ireen has the flu, at the current time. Does she feel like battling a “war” on a board she chooses in her spare time to moderate? Whitch is just getting over the flu. Please, have a bit of sympathy for the person, not the figurehead. I don’t know about the others, but please, just act respectful to them. And please, ask your other buddies who may have helped caused the ruckus, to say “Hey, look we may have been guilty of jumping the gun on this. We should have asked first and not assumed “Nazi” type behaviour.” The moderators are not anything but human beings with failings, like the rest of us. A wise saying comes to mind here: If you want others to be happy, practice compassion. If you want to be happy, practice compassion. ~ said by the Dalai Lama
PS - what can I say? As to why I dislike your method of operating so very very much. For one thing you talk, and talk, and talk, and still say the same things. “I’m right, you’re all wrong”. I shall attempt, once again, to get your attention. I’ve not been a big participant in any one forum or gathering or group. I flit about. Yes, I am a member of the Slackers forum. Yes, I have read many of your posts. I’ve always felt a very bitter taste in my mouth after reading one of your careful, long dissections of a person. Be it Eleri, or Louly, or Suzie, or Jahuti, or StarFrye or SuperGram or Elkae or the lady from CCN. I’ve not needed rumour to show me what type of personality you portray on the net. I’ve seen it myself. It’s an ugly, power-hungry, prideful monster I see written in your posts. Do you remember what killed the D’ni society? Pride. It is the most evil of all the sins. You, sir, are full of Pride. You, sir, have caused untold grief with your dissections of peoples personal lives. I’ve very happy that I’ve been careful to keep any knowledge of myself away from you. The entire argument of the UserKI was such a dividing point in my experience with Uru. Before that point it was of happy, joyful memories of Prologue, and the first few heady weeks of UU when my friends came back. Then the arguing started. My friends, Matt, Matrix, Louly, Loridion, MagooChris, DarK, GingerDiva, Mystical Explorer, and the list goes on and on, all left because of the arguing. “Who needs this shit?” was their opinion. So, yes, pride, and the boasting of power, which you do above in this very thread, and which you do so very very well has killed this game in my heart. Nevermore, can I think of this game as “innocent fun”. It is for that simple reason I shall never ever “like” you. I may tolerate you, if you write a public apology to the community for all the grief you have caused, through your posts, to this community. It is still a grieving community. You’re helping to twist the knife in, even deeper with every long-winded post you make. You have driven away so many that will never come back to say just why they left. But I see Louly for coffee. Yes, I’ve talked with her. Does she still hold a very bitter grudge against you? Oh yes, she does. So, smoke that in your pipe, Mister.
Ytram, see above re. Tomala - that’s where you should start
Chuckles - well, if a friend is somebody I say a cheery hi to once in a blue moon on the forum, and while in game, well then yeah I guess we were friends? But as far as having gotten to know this person who calls himself Chuckles, um, no, I haven’t. Never exchanged a single email between us. C’est la vie. No, the people who I call my friends are the ones whom I stay in touch with via PM’s and emails. They’re the true treasure of Uru for me.
When the former community manager of MystWorlds calls the behaviour “trollish”, I think that’s fairly observant, and worth looking at. Re. Kh’atie’s comment on the previous entry in this blog.
To move forward, please do what Alahmnat and IanAtrus have asked you to do. Please do what I have asked of you. Starting by laying down the weapons of words, and please, start by using words. Words of peace.
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:01 am
Oh, one thing I forgot to mention. Some of the moderators on the forum may not have English as their first language. English is a tricky language with many words having multiple meanings. So, it is hard for a non-English speaker to quickly get the gist of some off-the-cuff remarks. Please, have this in mind, when perhaps Veralun or Ian moderates your posts. They may simply be not quite understanding what you mean! As simple as that.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:23 am
The real reason I’m pissed…
You’ve insulted me, and my intelligence. I’ve been lied to, cheated, used and abused, had words put into my mouth as though you know me. I’m not the only one you’ve done this to.
Do you think … seriously that I’m pissed about not having access to the AdminKI code?
Look at what I have in the community these days? Nothing! I have nothing to lose and everything to gain! The only thing I’m after now is burning a bridge I attempted to build and I want it down on the record that you are a seriously bad Admin.
I needed nothing from you apart from information on how to make my own way, but instead I found it on my own.
I learned more from the cyan code, I could have destroyed shards from the inside out if I wished, the vault was something I mastered in a few short hours, It took you lot months.
Sick and twisted, why do you think my alias is DarK?
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:35 am
One more crack at this. PapaSmurf, this saying came to my mind this morning. “You should be careful what you say lest you find your own arguments used against you.” Yes, you’ve erected your own scaffolding, and you are now hoist to your own petard. By speaking your mind against those who didn’t have the lifestyle you thought appropriate; or by acting in ways that you thought not appropriate; or by not being contrite enough; or by using humour in the case of Ruby O’Degee; or plain anger at your action in the case of Suzie, you’ve constructed a very vast record on which to see where you stand. In your mind, it’s okay to belittle, put down, mock, and hurt people that aren’t like you. It’s okay to write down all the information you spent countless hours collecting on them without asking them if it was okay. That is called stalking by the police, you realize? Yes, it is public record. But it is common decency to ask someone before you spread their private life, or their misdeeds, for all to read on a public forum!!!! I truly wish someone would do a careful dissection of your life, and carefully spell out every single misdeed you’ve ever done in your life. Then you may begin to realize the damage you have caused. Compassion has never, ever been at the forefront of your mind. Do you know what the word means? Can you begin to try to comprehend that if you want respect, you must show it to others?
I fight for those who are too tired to fight, too discouraged. I fight for the tears that have been spilled over your words. Yes, they were long ago. But they still hurt to this day because of your presence. You ride in here, as we hear of the death of MOUL, and you proclaim yourself our knight in shining armour.
If there is anything like Uru Revived, I shall have nothing to do with you. It will be a fun, friendly, private thing I shall do. I sincerely hope they simply have 1 shard with no admin KI’s, no user KI’s, and no power to grab. If they don’t, and let it die. GREAT. End of story, goodbye cavern.
February 23rd, 2008 at 1:00 pm
I’ve thought long and hard about this whole situation, and about the years of history behind all of this. And I’ve decided that there is really only one truly appropriate response….
http://lakem.tezhme.net/cargo/appropriateresponse.mp3
I think that adequately sums up Eleri and I’s feelings about this. It should be obvious how serious this is to us.
February 23rd, 2008 at 2:56 pm
Notice how I said SOME moderators.
February 23rd, 2008 at 7:20 pm
I’m sorry, Yutram, but calling SOME moderators Nazis doesn’t make the fact that you called them Nazis any better. You are honestly not contributing to the discourse if all you’re going to do is throw offensive names around. And thank you for not apologizing.
And Tomala, the reason why it’s the only thing I replied to is because I’m busy, and haven’t had time to formulate responses to anything else yet. Truth be told, it’s easier to respond to a direct implication that I’m a Nazi for reasons I would hope are obvious.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:49 pm
I just wanted to say here that Deb Johnson has come on the Slackers Forum to confront us directly.
I applaud her for doing that. Does anyone else here have the guts to do the same? Or will you stay in your corner yelling at us from afar.
Or my favorite, poke fun at this situation. Especially when you know your partially to blame for it.
February 23rd, 2008 at 8:52 pm
I’ll have you know I’m completly blameless in this matter. That won’t stop me extracting the urine where and how I see fit.
February 23rd, 2008 at 9:23 pm
Honestly, I’m embarrassed at the words I used in there. I had a long read of the things that were said by Papa Smurf, BAD, Tomala, Yutram, and others. When I read the self-aggrandizing posts of Papa Smurf I could feel the pressure building and building inside me. Finally it really blew in an invective filled post. I shall not copy it here, due to the language. It’s ugly. That is the type of anger you get when you go to the Steam Room. It’s an irrational, over the top anger that you cannot control. It is not a healthy, good anger that relieves you. No, it’s a guilt-ridden angst that you let yourself get so riled up.
That is why the Steam Room is awful. Because it will build more hate, more anger, more frustration and much more anxiety in a person than it will ever relieve.
I shall never be returning to the Steam Room to see any replies, and I don’t wish to hear what they are, either. The point is that I think that Papa Smurf is one of the most arrogant, self-congratulatory, antagonizing people I’ve ever come across. Preferably we shall never cross paths again. Or he may just find himself going toe to toe with someone who will not back down. Mole meet mountain huh? Pffffffttttt.
Start the character assassination now Papa Smurf. Start smearing Toria’s name right, left and centre. Start on your careful examination of Google’s results of my name. There’s lots there. Have fun reading. See you later. I’ll be back.
Now what would be funny is if somebody mistakes Toria for T’ori which has happened a few times. Hahaha, that would be rich.
February 23rd, 2008 at 10:40 pm
The Steam Room is a place not a brain washing machine.
February 24th, 2008 at 12:55 am
Sorry Al, but the way I look at it, there are some really giddy mods there who love to twist people’s words. Sorry for speaking the truth, no matter how ugly it may be. But that’s the problem with truth. There are some things people will learn that are so atrocious under the skin.
February 24th, 2008 at 1:58 am
Just for the record, I hope Uru stays around for a long time. The community means a lot to me. I have enjoyed meeting and interacting with many people. My involvement in this current flare up of “everybody against the Slackers” was not an attempt on my part to say the Slackers haven’t ever done anything wrong. It was that I took issue when 3 year old issues are dredged up and foul things thrown around seemed to go against the first few posts of this current Blog thread. I applauded what I personally considered to be an end of the matter between Alahmnat and Papa Smurf. I was quickly corrected by DarK and then the vitriol just continued.
Toria’s post in The Steam room was very discouraging. I’m sorry she didn’t use the experience to accomplish something useful. But she has to take responsibility for her words and actions. Also, Deb, I still consider you a friend, but I am disappointed with your indictment of me for speaking out against what I was seeing going on here.
One reason I spend some of my Uru related time in the company of the Slackers, is that first off, they never did anything to me to cause me to dislike them. I see both sides of the old UU controversies. I’ve had friends leave the community due to the unpleasantness. There was plenty of blame to go around. Also, I’ve always been a fan of the underdog. I think they’ve been ostracized by the rest of the community way too long. Grudges against them have been cherished for way too long. They are really decent people that like to enjoy themselves. They have shown the ability to fight back when attacked, which is all that has happened here in the last week or so.
Long live Uru and let’s get rid of the anger, hatred and distrust. I suggest y’all re-read Alahmnat’s first post on this Blog. He has some good suggestions. I intend to believe that he was serious.
It is past time for healing in this community.
I’m done here, as there is nothing I can say to stop the hatred and intolerance. I tried.
February 24th, 2008 at 4:40 am
I see a massive disconnect in the thinking here. Chuckles says above me “It was that I took issue when 3 year old issues are dredged up”. Ah, right. But what defense are the people who are fighting the Nazi-style moderating team using? “Oh it’s because of our history that you’re against us”. Why not start living in the present? Moving forward? You can’t have it both ways, conveniently forgetting history where you want to. No, history is what has happened, and what will colour many peoples judgements of a person. Cry all you want that past history doesn’t matter where it’s damaging. But it does. Oh it does.
“Better to not speak and be thought a fool, than to speak, and remove all doubt”
February 24th, 2008 at 5:57 am
We moderators work as a team; I can’t really see how some of us could be awful nazis without any of the others noticing, unless there is a massive cover-up operation to hide any mistake made by the mods. And if anyone believes that, well, I’m not sure there’s anything I could say to convince him otherwise…
February 24th, 2008 at 6:22 am
The OP said this: “But there has to be cooperation from both sides for that to happen.”
So, I’ve seen concessions from Al, from Ian, from Ireen (and her lovely post in the Steam Room). But oddly I see one thing from Papa Smurf only. That is justifying the why it’s okay. I see Tomala giving a gruding “maybe we went too far to be calling them Nazis”. But cooperation? Where’s that? That’s the ingredient missing.
Ah, well when you’ve got a mountain, stuff flows down its sides. In Papa Smurf’s own words “Problem is, with me it is more like ‘Hi Molehill, meet Mountain!’, and I am not going to back down.” This shitty attitude of his flows down to his minions of Tomala, BAD, Yutram, Wutt Evah, Semper Fi, and Chuckles. They feel entitled to receive respect because of his attitude of “oh no, we do not back down! We don’t show no weakness!” But sadly, all you are doing is making yourself looking more and more stupid.
C’mon Papa Smurf I wanna see that mountain blow. I’m waiting for you. Blow baby blow. Blow that stocked up shit pile you’ve got stored. Blow, baby!
February 24th, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Are you guys still on about this? Looks like Blade had the best answer of all. Smart man, him.
PS bitches that people come to his space to start fights, and BAD bitches that no one has the balls to show up there.
Damn straight they want y’all to pick a fight on their turf! Then they have control. Out here, in public, they don’t.
Best thing to do with Intruding Marching Bands, is just ignore them until they pass.
February 24th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
PapaSmurf & Co vs The Community
http://www.stupidvideos.com/video/animals/Cat_Window_Fight/#61688
February 24th, 2008 at 6:09 pm
Toria… wow. I really don’t see why you feel that Tomala needs to apologize. In all honesty, she did probably know that her signature image was on the very edge of the rules. However, there was poor communication that led to the situation. If you look, you’ll find that the lack of communication happened on the moderators/Cyan’s end. However, Tomala could easily have sent a PM to a mod if she was unsure why her signature had been removed.
Something that bothers me right now is how Alahmnat is still being picked apart in the Steam Room for his defense of the MOUL mods. I’ve had dealings with three mods, all of those issues, only one really annoyed me. Ironically, the mod in question was Alahmnat, who was following the rules. (I had replied to a thread with the idea of editing one of the game files to reset the screen resolution).
Now, I have to say, the most useful comment here has been from BladeLakem. Appropriate response indeed.
February 24th, 2008 at 6:29 pm
What is man’s Achillies heel?
“His aggression.” — Stephen Hawking
February 24th, 2008 at 7:30 pm
PS “bitches” that people initially came to our site to start fights.
Bad “bitches” that people should come back to our site to end them.
Blade’s post was as sarcastic as anything Tomala has ever wrote and it added nothing of value to this discussion. Yeah, real genius working there.
I could post sarcastic videos and MP3s all day and you would take it as a threat, or me making a joke about this situation. Double standard?
Toria your stamping the ground and getting ready to charge, but their is nothing in the arena with you. Know when you have gone to far.
Blade,
Since you feel superior enough to add nothing of value to here, why don’t you get your wife together and use your collective genius to figure out a solution to this?
Nah, that’s no fun. Lets just poke at this here and there and watch our friends lose their minds flailing out blindfolded. That’s a great way to treat your friends. leave em in the dark and have them fight your battles.
Do any of you realize your being used?
Right now, I’m thinking you two are behind this. Prove me wrong.
PS: I’m not mad, never had been this whole discussion. I am saddened. I am sad that you folks have been abused like this.
February 24th, 2008 at 9:45 pm
Already have a solution. I stopped paying attention to your attempt at a vendetta years ago, about the time I got made the Poster Child. Best thing I ever got outta that was Papa Smurf labeling me the Aura of Permissiveness. I’ll carry that title proudly until the end of my days.
I must be something special if I can convince people I don’t even know (Hi DarK! Hi BearFoot! Nice to meet you guys, did you know I’m using you?) to fight my battles for me!
Sorry I’m not into tilting at your windmill anymore guys, it’s too lame to even contemplate. Go ahead and keep me as the Official Slackers Antichrist though, it gives me something to giggle at, when I bother to notice.
February 24th, 2008 at 10:19 pm
BAD, I’m sorry that you feel that way, and I’m sorry that you jumped into the land of wearing tinfoil hats.
The reality is that there isn’t any massive anti-Slacker conspiracy. Rather, a few self-identified Slackers have repeatedly made a nuisance of themselves in several places, so much that it’s become a common part of the Uru experience.
People are allowed to be upset at how you have treated others (myself, my wife and others) without there being a conspiracy. There do seem to be groups of related people involved in this. But rather than there being a conspiracy against you, rather there is an ever-growing community of people who have found each other because they have something in common - being disgusted and abused by the behavior of you and your fellow jackals.
Your siege mentality has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. You reap what you sow.
There’s very little I can add of value, because it has never seemed that you or PS or the others have been interested in discussion, compromise and resolution. Rather, you seem to be more interested in finding targets. So, my addition to the conversation was decidedly sarcastic, yes. Because these sort of petty melodramas that PS seems to engender (and has for what 5 years now) deserve nothing more.
As for claiming that we are behind this, I’m flattered that you think we have that sort of influence and that sort of Machiavellian skill. Unfortunately, we just don’t have that in us. Maybe this is a first of giving us too much credit, eh?
I’m not interested in coming to the Slackers forums to air my grievances because it’s accomplished nothing in the past. I’m not on this earth to visit your forum like a trained monkey to take abuse for your amusement.
But if you really want to discuss this, I welcome it. So I extend the same opportunity for discussion that I did to Papa Smurf many years ago when I found out he had gone out of his way to research my life because he needed to engage in character assassination on my wife while simultaneously insulting some of my dearest held beliefs (a PM that I never did get a reply on, btw).
You or _any_ other person who wants to discuss this with me, you can PM me on one of the boards. We can arrange to talk person to person via email or IM. Feel free to keep whatever logs you like and post them wherever you like. I’ll even arrange to speak to you on the phone if you like. Hell, some of the Slackers live in the Seattle area. We can meet at a neutral Starbucks.
Balls in your court, BAD. You know where to find me.
February 24th, 2008 at 11:16 pm
I wear my AFDB (http://zapatopi.net/afdb/) and so I am immune to Eleri and Blade’s Mind Control Ether Beams ™. (Must . . . Resist . . . Super . . . . Charged . . . . Ether . . . . Beams . . . . Eleri . . . Blade . . .Sending) Seriously, all this talk of the Steam Room only empowers those who are mired in that mindset. What we say in public is always a tempered view into our soul; what we say in private reveals true character - not others, but our own. The Steam Room says more about those who post there than buckets full of sodium pentothal. That is the Truth (with a CAPITAL T!) that finally came home to roost, and that is why I decided to exit the Steam Room in a truly immature blaze of glory. (Super . . . Charged . . . Ether . . . Beams . . . Getting . . .Stronger . . . .) None of this lessens the pain people have felt, in either direction, but stepping back and getting a little breathing room - well, I feel better now. In fact, I fell better than James Brown. (AFDB . . . Deflecting . . . Super . . . . Charged . . . . Ether . . . . Beams . . . Eleri . . . Blade . . . Defeated!)
February 25th, 2008 at 8:16 am
*sending mental mind beams of thought to Zardoz* My, that was well put! /clap /cheer /dance for humour, wit, fun, and laughs. Love it!
I love you guys *hugs*
February 25th, 2008 at 8:56 am
Blade is far more of a patient soul than I am. In light of the amount of barnyard-soiled mud that was flung at him the last time he offered his hand in this way, his willingness to open the door speaks volumes.
I have serious doubts that anyone will be of open heart and mind enough to take him up on his offer. I have no doubts though, that if he is met with the same unreasoned ignorance and accusations as before, with the same fierce hatred as evidenced above, that he will live up to his name.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:17 am
Hmm. It appears Blade and Eleri are clearly a pair of Hackers on Steroids. Know that I am onto your /b/tardly mind games. I have bought a dog to watch out for your exploding yellow van, and I have already commenced the charging of mah lazar.
February 25th, 2008 at 2:52 pm
Yutram, I’m still waiting for a proper explanation as to why some of the MOUL mods have been compared to people who rounded up and killed millions of innocent people and devastated Europe during WWII (and if you think I’m aiming for pity, you really don’t know what you’re doing comparing decent people to Nazis)… an apology would be even better, but I get the feeling one won’t be forthcoming. That’s unfortunate, since it’s obvious that you have issues with “some” of the mods at MOUL, but if you’re going to stick to vague and inflammatory name-calling rather than actually taking ireen and myself up on our offer to talk shop, I don’t think your opinion of us (or whichever “some” mods you were referring to) is going to change much.
Again, I have more to say, but life has seen fit to keep me otherwise occupied of late, and I’ve been unable to sit down and properly construct a response to everything that’s been said here. I will say, though, that I don’t appreciate the assumptions made by some that I’m trying to be cowardly or two-faced about this: saying one thing but encouraging others to do the opposite. What is said here is solely the responsibility of the person who said it; I’ve done nothing to encourage them to continue posting here. If anything, my pre-occupation with daily life has kept me from keeping the discourse as civil as I would have preferred it remain in the spirit of my post. You are, of course, free to continue to see this as a furtherance of my two-faced plot to continue this squabble, but then I doubt anything I could say would change that opinion if it’s already been cemented.
February 25th, 2008 at 3:19 pm
PapaSmurf, coming back to your words. “Well, the way I see it is that when the party who realizes that they started this mess steps forward and admits their mistakes, then we can talk. Until then, forget it. Since I already know that the old goat will never admit that they were wrong, I guess that this is where we stay.â€
From this I understand that what you want more than anything, is an apology. PapaSmurf, please post in this very thread. Tell us who you would like a apology from, and for what exactly. You asked us to be specific. What about now it is your turn? Are you willing to make peace? I noticed most here are. So it looks as if the “old goat†is willing to talk. But you must be specific. You need to mention the names of the ones who wronged you. You need to mention what they did to you. You need to offer your own ideas how the past can be erased.
You name it. Start building for the future. It does not need to be Slackers vs Them. The ball is in your court indeed.
February 25th, 2008 at 4:06 pm
Expect a PM from me Blade. I am always willing to talk things out. We won’t get far as I don’t really have any problems with you.
I wrote the above post to draw you out in a way. I didn’t really think you were behind any of this. I just needed to see if you were willing to surface for real.
Your problems are with PS, not with slackers.
You guys think I am paranoid? LOL. You don’t even know how paranoid I can get. Just because I’m paranoid doesn’t mean they aren’t out to get me.
You are saying that there is no conspiracy against slackers just a group of like minded individuals who have congregated to speak out about how much they dislike slackers.
So what your saying is that there wasn’t a group against slackers, but now apparently there is. I’m glad you found each other.
Bunch of strangers just coming together to bitch about people they dislike. Isn’t the internet beautiful?
February 25th, 2008 at 4:48 pm
PMs away!!!!!
(On the MOUL forum)
February 25th, 2008 at 7:37 pm
I’d like to draw everyone’s attention (and, indeed, I will be making sure this is seem widely) to what just happened here.
BAD made a deliberate accusation, that Blade and I were manipulating and using people into “fighting our battles”, that people were to stupid, to blind, to make their own judgments. That Blade an I had orchestrated the entire debate in a deliberate attempt to discredit Slackers
When called on it, his response is:
“I wrote the above post to draw you out in a way. I didn’t really think you were behind any of this. I just needed to see if you were willing to surface for real.”
In other words, he LIED. He, with clear intention, LIED about us, to see if we’d respond.
Let me make sure this is abundantly clear: BAD felt it was right and appropriate to make false accusations in order to draw us into a battle neither of us were fighting.
This is the behavior of the people challenging you to meet them on their own turf. These are the people saying they are the ones trying to make amends. These are the people saying they’ve done nothing wrong.
Draw your own conclusions. Blade and I don’t need a mind control ray for that.
February 25th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
I agree BAD’s choice of contact was wrong, however given his enthusiasm to talk things out, I don’t think alienating him is wise either. To be clear, he’s sorry. There’s no need to start a new round of attacks based on an untrue theory.
With that said, I think a great deal could be started if BearFoot would reveal who he/she is. The Slackers, from what I can see, dislike the possibility of being anonymously attacked just as much as the other side dislikes being targeted. But we’re not going to go anywhere until we start talking as one another and not aliases.
And no more of these ridiculous attacks. I’ve seen, from both sides, the worst possible tactics for arguing and both sides should be ashamed. It’s like watching two stupid bears poking each other and both getting shocked when the other attacks. We need to stop the snark between adult members of the community. We need to stop the sarcasm. These are children’s games we’re playing and it’s not a path to peace but to agitation. We need to stop the indignation and aggression and put our energies towards fixing this. Let’s get all the MOUL mods following ireen’s example and joining Slackers. She was greeted warmly by them. Who cares who’s turf it is on when we’re jeopardizing all our “turf” by prolonging this?
Right now this community needs peace. It needs to not make threats against each other and it needs to have the courage to begin talking to one another and getting to the old roots. Resolution won’t come if both sides get into yet another sarcasm war. Neither will it get solved if it’s ignored. Alahmnat’s right that this conflict breaks apart the community needlessly. Regardless of your opinions on an issue, you should be able to resolve your differences or at least agree to disagree. He was also right that this needs to stop if this community is going to thrive. You can either hinder the process and be someone to be helped, or you can have some courage and stand up and end the issues you have with each other on your own. Regardless, it will stop. Whether I have to do this alone or if I’m helped. It will stop. We are better than this, I’ve seen it.
February 25th, 2008 at 9:01 pm
Heh Shocked?
I’m not shocked at all that Eleri would viciously attack me like that.
I wasn’t really expecting it, but there you go.
Whils right. I used the word “thinking” and asked to be “proven wrong” (those are in my original post).
I did indeed have a theory that you may have been manipulating things a little, but it wasn’t a belief I held. More like a notion.
I’m sorry that I thought that way Eleri. You know the old saying, once bitten twice shy.
For the record.
BAD states! Without any question!!!
BAD HAS DONE SOME THINGS WRONG IN HIS LIFE, ONLINE, AND YES, EVEN ON THIS VERY BLOG!
He indeed is a human, and fallible.
You heard Eleri! Get out the pitchforks! Roast the infidel! He has lied to you! LIED!
(Good lord. You had me talking in the third person.)
February 25th, 2008 at 11:09 pm
Whil, I appreciate your concern and your call for peace.
This is at an impasse. All I can do is attempt to remain civil. Good luck with your endeavors, whatever they may be, BAD.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:06 am
Upon further reflection, I have decided that what I have to say is better said in private. If anyone has anything they wish to say to me, one of the other MOUL mods, or any other poster in this comment thread, I ask that you do so privately. Further, it is my opinion, as I have stated to others on an unrelated matter, that this community (and the Internet in general) is very good at bringing problems to the attention of people who have nothing to do with them, rather than directly discussing those issues with the people actually involved in the situation. I’m guilty of it, and so is everyone in this thread. Whether you think it will resolve anything or not, I encourage everyone who has said something in this thread to personally contact the person or people you disagree with, with the sincere intention to resolve those differences. No snark, no sarcasm, and no relating your discussions to others not directly involved. I realize that this is asking a lot, and that there is a lot of bad blood between folks here, but I’m naive and optimistic enough to think that it might make a difference. Everyone wants to move forward (or at least, that is the vibe I’ve been getting), so please, let’s stop with the passive aggression and the “you owe me an apology” comments and resolve this like adults. Whil is right, there has been childish behavior on both sides, and that needs to stop as well. I don’t expect us all to walk away from this feeling like kindred spirits or anything like that, but I do hope that when all is said and done, this pointless bickering will no longer be necessary.
And please remember, choose your words carefully and be considerate of each other. Baited comments, assumptions, and sarcasm are NOT condusive to resolving anything.
February 26th, 2008 at 2:39 pm
Whilyam Says:
February 25th, 2008 at 8:20 pm
Let’s get all the MOUL mods following ireen’s example and joining Slackers.
_____________________
I am sorry Whilyam but I am not interested in joining the slackers forum as I am not interested in joining many other MOUL related forums… It is not that I have a grudge against anyone it is just that I don’t have time to read all the forums and among all the forums existing I only belong to a few and I have hardly time to read them…. Among these few they are even some I did not have time to read for months and I don’t even remember my password there ! lol
If anyone, slacker or not slacker, has a problem with my moderation on the MOUL forum, they are more than welcomed to pm me on the MOUL forum… I’ll do my best to answer them and if they are not satisfied with my answer they can always contact another mod or Grey Dragon.
I don’t see why I should join another forum just to discuss my moderation on the MOUL forum… If people wants to call me names on other forums without even pming me before to explain what is their problem with me, it is sad but let it be… They don’t really know me and I know I am not such a bad person… I am a human like anyone else and I make mistakes like anyone else… and some users got my apologies when I made a mistake in moderating them….
When we accepted to be a moderator, we accepted to follow cyan rules and if people can’t respect the rules they will be moderated, friends or not … During the last year I had to moderate people that were good friends when they broke the rules and I am sorry if people believe we are showing favoritism with some posters cos it is far from true and cos we always try to be as fair as possible…
This will be my only and last post here… But again, If you want to contact me on the MOUL forum you are more than welcomed to do so…
Peace
February 27th, 2008 at 10:43 pm
Just wanted to let you people here know that Deb and I have apologized to each other. Things are calming back down.
If anyone else wishes to resolve things with me, you can reach me at many forums. MOUL being one of them.
Once you let go of the anger it isn’t that hard.
February 27th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
She has apologized to me as well, and I have also apologized to her in email and in the steam room. I think we can leave what we both said behind us.
It’s nice seeing some things being resolved.
February 28th, 2008 at 12:51 am
I am pleased to report that Deb apologized to me today. I gladly accepted her apology. Deb is still my friend and I am encouraged. I am sorry if anything I said was personally hurtful to Deb or others and would hope this will allow some healing to occur within the community.
I would like to thank Alahmnat and Zam for their posts a few above mine, as they both demonstrate a willingness to work together with those in the community so that our MOUL forum experience can be a positive one.
I have had a few instances where a MOUL moderator contacted me via PM. One was for my comments on forum moderation in a post I made, and the other was for having a banner in my signature that was too large. In both cases this Moderator was polite, respectful and I appreciated the PM’s to explain their actions. I apologized for my mistakes, and I was satisfied that the process worked properly in both cases.
February 28th, 2008 at 1:00 am
I would like to thank Deb/Toria for her apology to us, and I offer my apology for my responses to her posts in this matter. I am glad that we can put this behind us, and I am sorry that it even happened.
Again, thank you very much Toria. I appreciate your stepping forward to resolve this, and it is done and over with now.
This is a side note indirectly relating to this, but DarK has been banned from our forum for impersonating and posting as another community member there. Although he had permission to use the other members account, he failed to identify himself and posted in that persons name. The posts that he made in that persons name have been tagged as having come from him so they will not mistakenly be attributed to the member who he was impersonating.
February 28th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
I apologized to Deb/Toria as well, apologizing for anything offensive I may have said. It’s very easy for people to go over the edge sometimes.
That’s why I owe Alhamnat and the mods an apology myself. I may have gone too far and over-exaggerated with my Nazi comment. I agree it was rather unnecessary. What I meant was, there are mods on the board who seem to overmoderate. Sorry if this assumption is a false one. However, there have been complaints about posts being edited as well as other things without any mod notification. I hope this can be fixed.
So, I apologize to Toria or anyone my words offended, including the MOUL forum mods.
February 29th, 2008 at 4:16 am
Thanks Yutram for your apology. This means a lot to me.
Also thanks to all the others.
Please PM me if there are any issues about moderating on MOUL.
We all do our best but we are also human and can make mistakes.
Most important is whatever happens that we are a united community.
March 1st, 2008 at 12:06 pm
Pleased things are settled. I apologize for my tone in my previous posts. Let’s hope peace remains.
March 1st, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Still don’t know who you are Bearfoot, but thanks for the apology, and I offer mine for anything I wrote you may have took offense too.
I think we all got caught up in the moment.
April 24th, 2008 at 7:06 pm
Hi again. I just found out that Neeah The Red is in fact Eleri herself.
Read the Neeah or Neeah The Red posts to see how she really feels about this subject.
Nice to know when trouble comes around people are upfront and honest doesn’t it?