This is why we can’t have nice things…
All this infighting and he-said-she-said and bitterness and anger and talking about other people behind their backs and grudges and intentional “innocent” rule-bending etc etc etc etc is really starting to piss me off. It may not be tearing the community apart, but it sure as fuck is starting to fray it around the edges. This shit has got to stop. Why do people think that this is an appropriate way to behave? Why do we let them get away with it?
Maybe it’s just because I’ve been around for so god-damned long that I just don’t care if I’m ostracized or made fun of or put on any particular group’s blacklist, but I am sick and fucking tired of dancing around issues and grudges and problems and arguments just so that nobody gets upset and leaves. It’s stupid. We keep talking about how Uru (and Myst) is something that can be this huge commercial success that appeals to a zillion different people, but at the same time, we get so paranoid over making someone mad and having them leave because it’s one more person gone from this tiny little community we have here. We can’t have it both ways. Personally, I think that while this community may not be huge enough not to miss the contributions of any one individual, it’s big enough to get over it, and small enough that keeping problem-causing people around is eventually going to make it fall apart. It’s not worth it.
I like the Myst games, and I like this community… but sometimes the people in it make me wonder if I’ll even make it to my 10-year anniversary. But if I give in and leave, who else would be willing to put up with it? How many good people are these two-faced back-stabbers going to drive out before there’s nobody left but them and the people who don’t know any better?
And just to be perfectly crystal-clear on this, I’m talking primarily about the Slackers and their self-righteous ivory tower we-know-best attitude. They show up in droves when the situation suits their purposes, and they utterly destroy those who stand against them, argue with them, moderate them, or even just cough while they’re talking. Of course, they don’t do it in public, they do it privately, plotting in their little forum about who’s going to take the brunt of their next round of ass-hattery, and playing all innocent whenever someone calls them on their bullshit. I’m sick of playing in the undercurrent of implication and vague suggestion. Flame on. But know that I’m not leaving, no matter what gets said about or against me. I spoke earlier about all of the ills that came out of UU, well, this is the worst of it. And it needs to stop.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:22 pm
It’s truly sad to see this community have this kind of bullshit I’ll agree. Annoying yes. It’s got to stop. And no, I’m not leaving, either. Although, at times yes, I’ve debated that exact move, myself. Amen to your post.
February 17th, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Their ivory tower is only built by people doing what you have done here. They want to you fight them as it gives them more power.
Read what they post and face them logically and you will find most of it is just emotional outbursts and points based on hearsay and at times lies.
It only takes a few people to spoil it for the majority, the majority needs to just accept it and to make them understand that its not welcome. Failing that they just need to be ignored, eventually they will get the hint that people don’t want to listen
finally, what should people care what goes on behind closed doors, its when it becomes public do people need to worry.
February 17th, 2008 at 9:10 pm
You’re just causing even more problems by posting crap like this.
February 17th, 2008 at 9:35 pm
I have to laugh at this lame rant because I am not seeing anyone in Slackers who is causing any problems, nor any other ‘group’ for that matter. If you wish to attack a group of people, it is best to be specific about whatever it is that offends you. This rant is so generalized that it is pretty worthless. I hear that you have a complaint, I am just not seeing it. Who did what, when, and why did it offend you?
I know you are a young guy and you may not be happy when people do not bow to what you feel is ‘right’. Don’t worry though, after enough years you will learn that people will agree and disagree, and there is absolutely nothing you can do but try and be a voice of moderation and common sense.
Life is rough, get used to it.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:04 pm
I have known the Slacker’s for god knows how long and I have NEVER seen this kind of behavior you speak of.
I wouldn’t think them to have a self-righteous ivory tower we-know-best “attitude”. To be honest, their decisions ARE usually good ones. They are also a lot more welcoming and helpful than other “groups”.
The only time they have stepped into a situation is to exploit the bullshit being thrown into the open by various members of the community. The only reason psychologically I see those people being utterly destroyed is because they know what they’re saying is utter bullshit and they know they can’t fight it!
As for “plotting”. I am a member of that forum, I have not seen any “plotting” on about who’s ass is on the line. Actually, the only things that would be said of that sort are in the steam room, and quite frankly, it’s ranting or exploiting someone else’s BS.
I probably won’t change your view of the Slackers, but you’re entitled to your opinion. I’m just sad to see that is your opinion. Meh, that’s life I guess…
February 17th, 2008 at 10:21 pm
Not supprising to see PS and his posse show up here, all wide eyed and innocent. It’s part of their modus opperandi.
Makes me hope to the Maker for UU again, so they can go back to having their own shard, and leave the rest of us in peace.
February 17th, 2008 at 10:53 pm
It may surprise you Neeah, but I want whatever Cyan wants. End of story. I may voice my thoughts on a future for Uru, but they are only my thoughts on the matter. I would hope that this community would be respectful of the thoughts of others, especially when they are presented in a fair and non-confrontational manner. I would prefer that people calmly and rationally discuss any future and realize that while they may believe that they have the ‘right’ answer for the future of Uru, they do not hold the right to deny anyone else their thoughts on the matter.
In the end, whatever happens is decided by Cyan. What I am scratching my head about is that I am unable to identify exactly what triggered this rant by Alahmnat. If you have a clue, I would appreciate a heads up on it. I notice a reference to a ‘private’ area where I guess we are supposed to be plotting our nefarious plans to take over the world. While there is a forum area we have that is hidden to people who are not logged in to the forum, it is available to all members who are logged in. We set the forum area like this because someone politely requested that we do so. I had no problem with that, and that is the end of that story. If you are curious to know what is in this ‘private’ area, please feel free to join the forum and you can do so. Everything that is posted in there is available to read, and since it seems that something there set Alahmnat off, maybe you can find it. I sure can’t.
That is why this rant is so curious. I am looking for some kind of ‘trigger’, something that specifically set Alahmnat off. Right now, it just looks like Alahmnat is yelling FIRE! and yet nothing in sight is burning.
Sorry if this posts twice, but it did not show up after the first post.
February 17th, 2008 at 11:45 pm
Truth be told, this has been a bad weekend for me, and while there has been no one massive trigger to set off this rant, it’s been a long time coming, probably since about 2005, after seeing argument after argument and grudge after grudge explode out of UU, mostly on the DRC forum. This weekend has simply been the straw that broke the proverbial camel’s back for a number of reasons. I readily concede that not everyone on the Slackers forum is part of this problem, but working as a moderator, it’s really hard to not see a statistical pattern in problem-starters, and Slackers members have been involved in a seemingly disproportionate number of issues on the MOUL forum since its opening. The back and forth and often intentional egging-on of the moderators there in order to get a rise, response, or just stir up trouble (whether with them or the membership at large), is really something that annoys me for reasons I hope don’t need explaining, however vague it may make this response sound. As far as targeting specific people, I find it hard to believe that this isn’t the case, given the rather public conflict between Ruby O’degee (and other CCN members) and the Slackers group that spanned topics wholly unrelated to the original disagreement on the DRC forums just before and during the liaison elections. And for the love of god, don’t even get me started on what seems to be your personal vendetta against Eleri for not seeing Uru the same way that you do. These are just the first examples that come to frustrated and very tired mind; I’m sure if I did some digging I could turn up some more.
As far as wanting what Cyan wants (something I see more than just you saying, PapaSmurf), I find that a somewhat disingenuous stance to take, when Slackers members were and still are the loudest and most obnoxious people lamenting UU’s shutdown (with many if not all of them perfectly capable of accessing MOUL), and Tomala in particular has been a highly outspoken poster demanding that UU not be brought back, simply to teach people a lesson, since they didn’t seem to want it enough to keep it around before anyway. I simply cannot wrap my head around the wrong-headedness of this sort of attitude; for Cyan to even make a pass at making MOUL a success, they needed to have one product on the market, not two, and certainly not one that you could join and get substantially more content in for free than the other. Now that MOUL has been axed and the community is looking for ways to stay together, UU is of course an option being tossed around again. Standing around saying “I told you so, UU should never have been shut down, this was a loss from day 1″ doesn’t even begin to be useful, helpful, appropriate, or intelligent.
Finally, I’m all for leaving nastiness to rot in a corner by itself until it goes away. It’s often the easiest and least painful solution for everyone involved. However, this is something that simply cannot be ignored; it’s been ignored by the majority of the community for plenty long enough at this point, and still it persists. Why? Because divisive behavior and bitter, sarcastic off-topic posts are things that need to be dealt with by forum moderators on places like MOUL, and this is the trigger that’s being sought after: recognition by the mods. It’s a rock-and-a-hard-place position for us to be in, because on the one hand, we could just let it go and hope that it goes away, but that in itself is a validation that such behavior is acceptable. But deleting posts and warning members privately is something that triggers the “stir the pot” reaction. No, leaving this to fester in the underground has gone on plenty long enough.
This has nothing to do with me being “right”. This is me consciously observing that the attitude and behavior of this community has changed in the 9 and a half years that I’ve been a part of it, and while the Slackers are by no means the only root of the problem, they sure as hell don’t seem to be helping things. If I’m “wrong” for wanting all of this crap to go away so that I can enjoy my time in this community the way I did when I first joined, then fine, tell me I’m wrong. I just see no reason why any of this should be tolerated, and if someone’s going to get strung up for saying it, it might as well be me.
February 18th, 2008 at 1:13 am
After reading all of that, all I can say is ‘ummmm, ok?’
I am not being disrespectful about what you are saying, but the items you decided to be specific about are issues that are 1-2+ years old. They had nothing to do with MO:UL, and as far as I am concerned were addressed and settled a long time ago. I have not participated in MO:UL, but my wife and daughter do. I was in beta and restoration, but due to college, I had no time to participate. So I have been out of MO:UL since before it launched, but I still supported it with our GT subscription. But other than paying for the subscription, I have been completely out of the game and forum scene for over a year now. I only recently posted in our forum about MO:UL closing, and my thoughts about it and any future that it may or may mot have. It was my first or second post ever on that forum, go check for yourself if you wish to. I was sad to hear that Uru would be closing down, and I expressed myself in a place that I happen to run. I was not out to post my thoughts all over.
A forum member copied my post and posted it over at the MO:UL forum. Our unspoken (but now written) rule was that things posted in that area of our forum were not to be posted elsewhere. So I was quite surprised to see that someone did this, so I responded to it at the MO:UL forum and that is the end of it. If it had never been posted there, I would not have posted anything myself. I was out of the community (in my mind), so there was no reason for me to post my thoughts anywhere else. I have not posted about them anywhere else since, nor do I plan to. In fact, I have really said all I have to about the subject. They were just some random thoughts of mine, and now that they have been stated there really is no reason to repeat them.
Regarding the past history, I like to remind people that if they take the time to go to the various forums and read posts from myself or my family, they will not find us ‘attacking’ everyone on other forums. What you will find is that we had the temerity to express ourselves on our forum, the one we host and run, and some people in the community decided to take it on themselves and come over and set us straight. We made the mistake of initially responding to what others said on other forums, but we quickly found that overzealous mods liked to edit and re-arrange things to suit themselves.
So we stuck to our forum, and the ‘do it my way!’ people had to come to us to fight it out. I keep that forum up to this day as a museum to the UU past. Unedited, rarely ever moderated, raw truth. People came there when they found that we allowed them to express themselves without being censored. What a novel idea! Let people talk, hash out problems and maybe even solve them. Open discussion, something I learned is a rarity in the general Myst/Uru Community, what a novelty.
I am sorry if I sound irritated, but I started Slacker’s Shard as a place for people to meet and have fun. That was the extent of my enlistment, or so I thought. I soon learned that there were people in the community who had their own sense of entitlement, people who had no problem coming over and telling me how I should do things. What I can or can’t do, who I should or should not ban, who is mean and who is nice. This ’secret’ about ‘that’ person. I had people fawning all over me just because I was a shard owner. Man, there is no faster way to get on my wrong side than to try and butter me up with endless platitudes, then toss in a curve ball that you can’t stand . I do not like suck-ups, and some people found out that I would not play along with them. So they decided to make my life miserable, but what they found out was that I fought back. As nasty as they got, I got nastier. I did not start it, but if I had to I would damn well finish it.
Next thing I know, I have people dragging their fights over to my shard and dragging me in the middle of them. It was a no win situation, damned if you do and damned if you don’t. All I could do was muddle through it and try to be as fair as I could. I have a very strict sense of fairness, and when people try to manipulate events or situations to their favor, they lose any respect I may have had for them. You could tell who lost with me when they would stalk off mouthing off all kinds of stuff in posts to our forum, or their favorite game, in posts to me. Once I publicly posted information that had been PM’ed to me, and threatened to post more, they went away. That finally ended it. But it took me to stop it as all they wanted to do was endlessly fight, like they had nothing better to do in Uru.
Personally, I have to ask myself if I am crazy for even considering running a shard again. We were there until the bitter end of UU, but you do not know how many times I almost pulled the plug and said ’screw it’. The only thing that stopped me from shutting down was that there were many others who were depending on us to provide a place for them to call their own. People who made my efforts worth it. People who had been treated like crud on other shards and felt that they were not welcome because they were no with the ‘in’ crowd on that shard. We had no ‘in’ crowd, every single person who came to our shard was greeted and treated politely. If they started problems, we tried to resolve them, and if that was not possible then the person was banned. I hated doing it, and I can tell you that dealing with others problems flat out sucks.
You know, you are not who defines what Uru is. We all do. Uru is not what you say it is, it is what we think it can be. Why? Because, as of April 4th, it will not exist. Unless Cyan comes up with a plan to save Uru, it is gone and will only live on in the minds of some as a possibility. I can understand a ‘purist’ of Myst wanting Uru to be what they think it should be and any departure from that is a horror that they do not want to even think about considering. It is blasphemous to even consider anything but the pure storyline. I have no problem understanding and respecting that, and in many ways it makes sense. Myst has always been a you-control-the-flow type of game. You are in control. Now bring those personalities into the online game and guess what happens. Fireworks. You have a bunch of people running around, each with ‘THE’ answer to all of the woes in Uru. It is a pie fight looking for a place to happen.
Funny that you should mention ‘PYST’, as that is what came to mind as I read your original post. Where you find PYST objectionable, I find it funny. In some ways, it was rather prescient about Uru…lol! My point is that everyone does not see Uru through the same glasses. There are about as many ideas as there are Uru supporters. Your vision of Uru is one that wishes to restrict it to what you think it would be. My vision of Uru is one where all would be free to experiment and try ideas, some of which you would probably object to as they would not meet your criteria. So, in a nutshell, you are for controlled access, moderation and development. I am for open development and access.
So we have differing opinions. Big deal. I know I may not be right, but do you?
Maybe people like to fight all of the time. Maybe some people like drama, or both. Whatever it is, when you get a bunch of people together, you are going to get problems. There is no way of avoiding it. I notice you say something about a moderating problem. I am going to assume that it is over at MO:UL, and since I have only recently posted there I am hoping it was not something that I have said or done. If so, I would appreciate you letting me know if that is the case. If so, I would have to apologize as I posted without the intent of offending anyone.
“Slacker’s” is my wife, our daughter, our former shard admins, forum moderators and myself. ‘Slacker’s members’ are those who associate with us. I would appreciate any clarification of your message regarding “Slackers” being a problem, and if it is members or a specific Slacker (as defined above). If is is a specific Slacker, please provide me the information so I can see for myself if there is a problem. Like I said, I have been out of the community for a long time, but if I am going to be dragged through the mud then I want proof. For example, there are a few Greeters who I think are a bit full of themselves, but I am not silly enough to paint Greeters with the same broad brush and define them as all alike. That is what I find disturbing about what you wrote as it seemed to be aimed at my family or myself, yet you were using a broad brush and generalizing. If you have a problem you want to deal with, you have to be specific. No beating around the bush, otherwise you are just wasting time.
I did not mean to ramble on, but I am sick and tired of those who have this high and mighty idea that they have the right to judge any person or group of persons, and that judgment should honored as the only correct one. There are two sides to every story, and in the history of UU, there are probably forty or fifty sides. You are expressing your side, and all I am doing is expressing mine. Especially as it seems that I was dragged into something that I had no idea was going on.
Peace.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:18 am
Since my name was mentioned regarding my opinion of Until Uru not being brought back. I’d just like to say that over time, I’m known by my friends and family for being a sarcastic individual, most people who know about us already know that.
And as I saw the same people who wanted to throw away Until Uru crying for it to come back, I felt bitter about it and posted in a sarcastic tone. A lot of people seem to miss sarcasm. To be helpful here is the Definition of sarcasm:
http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/Sarcasm
Sorry if people misunderstood… I’ve found using sarcasm to be very therapeutic.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:23 am
Wow, I can’t even begin to dig through the layers of manipulation and misdirection in these few posts. A beautiful piece of look-at-how-I’ve-been-wronged rhetoric. Bravo!
Let’s see, we have redirecting the conversation from what he’s pissed off about to an area where you can score points by trying to make him look like he’s insisting on his way of things. That couches it in terms of ‘bad pissy control-freak’ vs. ‘freedom-loving rogue gettin’ put down by the Man’. The retreat to ‘There are no right answers and I’m just expressing my opinion and that makes it okay’ is a time-honored tactic, too. These two are effective when used together, as you can see.
Then there is chalking up problems to being in the past – an effective way to move them out of the realm of conversation because the fact is that your past actions are the way people build an opinion on the sort of person you are. So they have to be invalidated.
Also important is to diffuse the argument through demands for specifics when what is being argued is a long-term pattern of behavior. This makes you sound reasonable (I mean proof is reasonable, isn’t it?), and by being able to seemly discredit a specific or two, you can imply that the totality of it is unjust.
And the requisite comments about Alahmnat’s age, cuz it’s easy to discount people because they are younger. Check! Supposed superior experience is a good rhetorical stance.
Oh, and the the bit about ‘you seem to be targeting me but how dare you paint all of these good fine people with this broad brush’ is a deft little bit of manipulation there. Makes you look like the defender and protector, a martyr even. It deflects it nicely from the topic of the specific environment which you’ve created being a source of more problems he has encountered than is statistically common. Good job!
Ya see, there’s a certain sort of bully in the world that hides behind what seem to be reasonable words. They push at people’s buttons quietly yet persistently and stay just on proper side of the line of civility, goading their prey. They poke and prod and push until the other person finally loses their temper. And once they do, they retreat to the position of being wronged. From there they can point out to their friends how reasonable they are by comparison because, after all, they aren’t the one that’s angry, right?
February 18th, 2008 at 5:07 am
Gary, you just can’t talk with the self-righteous until they find out for themselves that maybe, just maybe, they did do something wrong after all and it’s not a case of the world picking on them because they can’t stand the sight of someone who is always right.
I like to give everyone the benefit of doubt. Mistakes are made all the time -on either side-, apologies are given, life goes on. However, this is not the case. This is the case of a small number of persons who thought they were more beautiful in the eyes of mommy Cyan, and when Cyan let them down (in their eyes) they thought they just could do anything they wanted and get away with it. After all, if Cyan did wrong then why shouldn’t they?
By the way, I’m not talking about all of the Slackers. I’m not even talking about the Slackers. I’m talking about *individuals*, who know very well who they are and should be adult enough to take responsibility for their actions without hiding behind a group.
February 18th, 2008 at 7:18 am
Ian Atrus, you can’t talk about anything when one side sticks their nose up in the air and refuses to talk about it. Your post pretty much is the poster child for the righteousness that some in this community like to live by. They are always right, and everyone else is wrong. You insist that some in this community think themselves more beautiful than others in the community. Well, that is your opinion and when I read your post I can see that you must think you are real cute.
I started Slackers. I AM Slackers. My forum and shard personnel are Slackers. Everyone else who wants to be can call themselves members of Slackers. But I do not control them, I do not rule them. If they go somewhere and do something that you do not like, is there a Slacker’s stamp of approval on it? No, they are responsible for their actions. Slackers is not, but thanks for trying to tie us in to it. I notice that some in this community prefer to not delineate the differences between Slackers and their members, which I can only assume is because they are too intellectually lazy or dishonest to do otherwise.
You know, until Alahmnat’s rant here, I did not know that there was this nasty current running under the surface of the Uru community. Maybe because I have been gone for over a year, that might have something to do with it. Maybe because, like water under a bridge, it is the past and gone now. But to you who love to nurse and hold grudges, that water must be still, flat and brackish and covered by pond scum by now.
You are partially right in one respect though; I can agree that the problems we faced on our shard primarily came from one easily identifiable group. We have been called just about every name you can imagine, including being compared to “Ebola”, and more recently called a “poison” by a fellow blogger of yours that I will not waste my time responding to. He felt he had to write his blog about us and post a link to it on our private forum just to make sure that we saw the red flag he was waving. Yup, nice peaceable people over here. What a laugh.
Starting crap up is a sport by some in this community, and this place is only encouraging more of it. Dredging up crap like this when Uru is going through another shut down is just stupid and self-serving, IMO. Nothing like what happened in the past is going on now, but someone just has to stir things up so they can have their fun. I still have no point of reference as to what the ’spark’ was that set Alahmnat off, and until I have one I am going to assume that this is just more of the same old bellyaching we had to put up with in the past.
February 18th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
guess maybe I don’t have any right to post here on this issue since I didn’t play UU and gave up on Moul out of sheer boredom.
However since I found this little thread floating around I would like to say a couple things.
1. Slackers people were nice to me when I was new. I never did get to play ingame with them but they were very kind to me the new person. They gave me links ingame to their ages.
They had a lot of laughter and stuff on the forum.
2. I can’t go by the past because I don’t have one in this game.
3. I do know that the Moul forum is a dictatorship and anything said that is negative and truthful is deleted.
4. I’ve read posts on that forum and I don’t see what this is all about.
As for individuals, well if it’s like my guild in EQ2 you attack one you have attacked us all and we will respond accordingly.
So to the OP I don’t see where you are getting this. If it’s from the past well guess what past is past it never comes back.
Oh and from what I have learned about UU in seeing some videos it sure looks like there was a HECK OF A LOT TO MISS
February 18th, 2008 at 4:19 pm
Ian Atrus’ comment has been removed at his request because it was quite malformed, in case anyone saw it and wonders where it went. I have more to say, but am making sure I choose my words carefully, so as not to obscure my point.
February 18th, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Sorry to say tdavis, but your post puts the topic off even more.
Unless you haven’t noticed, PS wasn’t trying to “put down” anybody. He was just trying to let you understand his point of view. I guess it’s effective because it’s the truth, isn’t it?
Apparently you can begin to dig through the “layers of manipulation”. I mean, heck, your post is just about as long as Papa Smurf’s!
Honestly, you should take your own advice. At the moment you seem to be the one poking and prodding into PS and twisting his words. I guess that would explain why you seem to be an expert on the subject.
February 18th, 2008 at 8:11 pm
I will make this my last post on the topic here, and anything that is posted after this I will discuss on my forum. tdavis, what you wrote is little more than drivel and your twisting of my words and intentions to fit your narrative, and in this community that tactic is as old as the hills. Any further response to you would be a waste of time so I will not waste any more.
Alahmnat, a member of our forum succinctly summarized your OP and in the absence of any defining information from you, I believe their analysis is on target. Since our rule is not to quote from that area of the forum, you will have to find a way to read it for yourself. After FreddyD’s (the member who posted) summary on our forum, there is nothing more to say about it here.
Alahmnat, you fired this mess up and that was your choice to make, not mine. You started a fight where none existed before, and as long as you keep at it then so will I. You end it, and so will I. It is that simple.
Your move. Or not.
February 18th, 2008 at 9:11 pm
Papa Smurf said, “Everyone else who wants to be can call themselves members of Slackers. But I do not control them, I do not rule them.”
Papa Smurf also said in the same posting, “You know, until Alahmnat’s rant here, I did not know that there was this nasty current running under the surface of the Uru community. Maybe because I have been gone for over a year, that might have something to do with it.”
Alright then. So… PS is not responsible for what the Slackers do, and by his own admission, he hasn’t got the foggiest clue of what’s been going on for the past year or so. Yet he thinks it’s reasonable to complain here about the things that are being said of the Slackers. This is so much like the parent whose darling children could never do any wrong, and who is conveniently not around when the neighbor’s yard gets trashed.
I’ve been unhappy with the mods at MOUL sweeping all the crap under the rug for quite some time. Eventually, you just run out of rug to sweep it under, and by hiding everything that has happened, it has only allowed those who cause trouble to feign innocence and point at the nice clean slate that has been left for them.
I can only hope that this straw is also the one that brings change, if the MOUL and DRC forums are going to stick around for much of anything beyond April.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:15 pm
Can I post here now?
February 18th, 2008 at 10:23 pm
Marten,
I believe PS is saying he did not know that some people were harboring bad feelings about Slackers.
As a point of reference, I too had no idea that these people had such a poor opinion of us.
This really is the first time (recently) someone has pointed their finger at us as some sort of cause of things. Shows bad taste in my eyes to cast blame like that.
Then again I’m a slacker so my opinion is automatically going to be ripped to shreds.
Nice place you got here Al.
February 18th, 2008 at 10:47 pm
I’m not normally a “blogger”, but this drew my eye, and I have a few thoughts. This post has ended up being a lot longer than I thought it’d be, but I hope everyone can understand what I’m trying to say:
1. Quite a few poignant words have been said, and I don’t think any more nasty words need to be exchanged. There comes a point in most arguments where the 2 parties know fully well where the other stands. Continuing to lash out isn’t going to convince the other of your own stance, so it’s best not to try. When 2 parties are at this kind of a deadlock, it’s best just to leave each other alone. Both online and in real life, there are plenty of people/groups that I finally adopted the mindset of “I’m just not going to deal with them any more.” At some point, you have to remove from your life the people who are only harmful to it.
2. I, personally, have had *zero* experience with the Slackers, but I *have* had experience with individuals and groups in this Community (and in real life) that were detrimental (in one form/extent or another). To me, they fall into 3 categories:
~1 Trolls–Those who want to cause chaos & hurt the Community for their own sick pleasure.
~2 Tyrants–Those who want control, power, & influence, to do whatever they want.
~3 Narrows–People who aren’t looking at the whole picture.
The first 2 categories are fairly straight-forward. But the 3rd category interests me the most. Some of these people border on the 2nd category. Some are merely narrow-minded in the scope of things. Some are simply impatient. Some think that because they’re right (or at least they *think* they’re right), that it’s okay to tear down opposing positions. Some just don’t realize that what they’re saying could offend people, or that what they’re saying isn’t universally accepted. Some are any combination of any of these.
For starters, both in saying something, and in interpreting what others have said, we have to realize that sometimes we have to give people a little benefit of the doubt. Without hearing tone of voice & seeing facial expressions, sometimes it’s easy to give the wrong impression, and misinterpret what has been said.
Next is something really important I’ve learned in life: “Wrong and right are black and white, but people are every shade of gray.” It’s all too easy to lump people into “good” and “bad” categories. But it’s not that simple, because human behavior is illogical–we constantly do conflicting things. And social behavior is possibly the biggest example. As I said, when people think they’re right, they feel justified in enforcing that opinion. Unfortunately, sometimes they go too far, and feel no qualms with using more “underhanded” or “unseemly” means to do so. They’re okay with that, because they’re sure that they’re “right”. But my philosophy is that “No righteous cause necessitates cloak and dagger.”
As I write this, I’m not thinking of any group in the Myst/Uru Community, but rather a particular community I belong to in real life. There are a group of “elites”, a group of “outcasts”, and groups/individuals everywhere in between. And the same kind of drama we see in this Community goes on there, at different times & ways, just like in any complex community.
Far too often in life, people (who often really are good people on the whole) will get too “set” in an idea of how things should be, and end up going too far, stepping on others’ toes, offending people, etc. The fact that they really are good people is no excuse for blatantly inexcusable behavior, but we shouldn’t lump them in with the Trolls & Tyrants as “bad” people. Humans act stupid, and it’s hard to stop.
3. I’ve seen a number of people in the Myst/Uru Community leave because of the drama that has unfolded at one time or another. Ultimately, this has come because of the increased “population” of the Community. Back in the pre-Uru days, the Community was fairly small, and things went pretty smoothly for the most part. But once a community–whether online or in real-life–reaches a certain social size (differing for each community) or “critical mass”, conflict will inevitably seep in. Very different kinds of people arrive, with very different attitudes, and very different ideas.
Once a community reaches this “critical mass”, conflict arises. But though conflict is inevitable, that doesn’t mean that chaos and strife is the end-game. There is always a way to sort things out and settle the social environment. And figuring out how to do this is the only way for a community to survive and grow past this “critical mass”.
The Myst/Uru Community has been at this “critical mass” since probably around the Prologue days. And as we’ve increased in mass, we’ve seen the strife of diversity arise. Every growing community goes through this. The question is, will we pass the test? Will we learn how to sort things out? Will we accept new ideas without destroying old ones, and vice-versa? Will we accept new kinds of people without driving away the “Oldbies”, and vice-versa?
As well in society as in politics, being on the wing-tips just alienates half the community. It’s okay to have new, different, and even conflicting ideas, opinions, or feelings. But don’t be too extreme. Even if you’re completely right, being too extreme often drives some of the wrong people away. Always think of how others could interpret what you say, and don’t be too quick to solidify your interpretation of what someone has said. And always remember that “An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.”
4. I did a little bit in UU, though I never witnessed any of the “User-KI” functions, or other “alterations”. I heard about them, and thought they were interesting, but thought that they were merely “side-notes” to Uru. I think that’s how it should have stayed. User-KIs & other alterations were fine, considering how un-cannon, disjointed, and out-of-the way UU was. The problem was people assuming what has been called “ownership” or “entitlement” of Uru–they saw UU as what Uru *was*, instead of a *side-note* in the absence of what Uru was *meant* to be. And when people in a large community assume things that aren’t necessarily so, conflict arises.
I think that it would be okay for UU-type, user-run Uru shards to come back AS LONG AS Cyan put up a D’mala-type “official” shard. If people want to goof around (not that there’s anything wrong with goofing around sometimes) in the user-shards, with User-KIs, and all kinds of custom alterations, fine. But ONLY as long as there’s an Official Shard to keep the spirit of what Uru was meant to be stable amongst all the side-notes. UU had some great things, but it was not an “uru”–a “grand community”, because it was so fragmented & non-uniform.
During the Prologue days, some complained that there wasn’t much to do in Uru. I even heard Uru referred to as a “glorified chat room”. In between Episodes, that’s pretty much what Uru was. And without new content/story, that’s what any resurrected form of UU (with or without an “official” shard) will be. The difference is the potential for the future. The chances of Uru Live returning kind of slim, but they’re *nil* if we let the spirit of what Uru was meant to be die.
The name of Cyan’s UU shard called us all back with the D’ni word “D’mala”, meaning “return”. I call for everyone who saw the potential of URU to *keep* the dream alive. I call for the Uru Community to *stay* together in an Official Cyan Shard. I call for all the “Oldbies” to *remain* in this ever-changing community.
And I make this call using another D’ni word: “Beerah”, meaning “keep, stay, or remain”.
Shorah
February 19th, 2008 at 2:23 am
I had to return after reading the above post by K’laamas. It is on target in my opinion, and it would pay for a few people to read it and think about what is said. Thank you for your excellent post, I think your assessment of the nature of groups versus individuals or other groups is correct. The ‘critical mass’ is on target too. This is a problem that some in the community have a problem understanding. I can understand the craving for control and peace, but if the rest of the world can not do it, how in the heck do we think we can in Uru?
I am a troubleshooter, and that is my expertise. I can troubleshoot computers (software and hardware), cars, boats, electrical systems, mechanical systems, electroplating systems, chemical baths and more. Recently, I tore my wife’s car engine apart to replace some parts. I like tinkering. For some reason, I am also very good at solving interpersonal problems. I just like to fix stuff. I am also a person who likes to have fun, and as much time as I spend solving problems, the last thing I want to do is have problems when I am supposed to be having fun. But when a problem presents itself, if I am involved in any way, I feel obligated to find a solution.
When Until Uru started out, people got along fine for the first six months or so. There were small squabbles between small groups and individuals, but that stuff was pretty much confined to one shard. None of the shard owners or admins had problems with each other, and everyone was busy having fun with Uru. By the time that the AdminKI came out, most shard owners were pretty familiar with the server Vault Manager (Cyan built database program that allows you to manage the shard database) and they were doing modifications to the server through it. The AdminKI made setting up a shard much easier, and faster. It was a tool and we liked using it to make our job easier. Some ingenious people came up with ideas to alter or add code that allowed us to manipulate objects in the game, and we entertained users with strange things like turning off all of the textures in the Courtyard, changing the density and color of the fog and so on. But first and foremost, the AdminKI was a tool.
When you set up a clean shard, the database tables are empty. Since everything is set to a default, you need to configure the Ages and other locations to turn on Journey cloths, pith helmets and so on. So you have to link to every single Age that needs a corresponding database entry point. When you link, the data is generated and stored in the database. But you have to solve the areas to get access to the other areas so they will show up in the database. This can take a lot of time to do, as you are essentially running the whole game to populate the database. One odd thing I noted with Plasmaserver is that if I just set up the shard and let people in, then configured the Vault as the Ages appeared, people had persistent data problems. If I set the whole shard up and then let people in, there were fewer problems.
So what could take a couple of hours to run through to get entered in the database, I could do in less than a half hour with the AdminKI. Like I said, it was a tool first. The problem is that now we had AdminKI hate/envy problems in the community. H’uru decided to release a UserKI that contained some AdminKI code that was considered ’safe’. As I was new to the H’uru project, I did not feel it would be proper to make waves, but I was against it. Some of the code could be easily altered, and it was within a month or two after its release. At the time, there was the Guild of Admins over at COBBS, and it was a place that shard owners and admins could talk code, trade ideas, share info about problem users and so on. While the GoA was a great idea, the Guild was only as strong as its weakest member.
Unfortunately, that weakest member was a good friend of one of the UserKI hackers who hung out on his shard. The GoA had taken a vote and it was overwhelmingly to ban the person who got caught hacking (on at least two different shards, one being mine). The shard owner who was supporting his friend (the hacker) wanted a second vote, and it still came up as a ban. The shard owner, for their own reasons, refused to agree, and I walked out on the GoA shortly thereafter. There was no sense having an organization that did not work as it was intended to.
General mayhem broke out in the community, mostly consisting of ‘us’ versus ‘them’. I refused to allow the hacker on my shard, as did other shard owners. So the hacker and their friends proceeded to make my life as miserable as they could, and boy did they try. They targeted Slacker’s as a hate group, telling new people to the community to stay away from us, that we were the “ebola” of the UU community and on and on. I still have personal messages that some in the community would be ashamed to admit that they wrote. I finally ended the battle when I threatened to post everything that everyone was saying about everyone else. Boy, that got their attention. They backed off and things calmed down to a dull roar, and we have endured behind the back sniping ever since. We know, we went incognito and collected chat logs of it. I have a museum of stupidity I have collected from the UU days, and I hope it never sees the light of day. But I intend to keep it as an insurance policy so if the same people start up with me again, I am loaded for bear and ready to hunt. Unfortunately, anyone associated with Slacker’s is the enemy in the eyes of some, and that is where we are today.
Maybe Slacker’s attracts some people who are a little outspoken, after all we are about the only free speech area in the Uru community. So maybe you are going to hear more gripes there because people know that they can vent if they feel the need to. Myst/Uru forums tend to be overmoderated, almost to a Rodney King like ‘Can’t we all just get along’ tune. Sorry, but when you get a bunch of people together, you better plan for the eventual meltdown. It is going to happen, sooner or later. Critical mass, you know.
I would like to add that the shard owner who backed the hacker up, and myself, have ‘buried the hatchet’ and consider the matter long settled and over. Mistakes were made, and that is the end of it. Unfortunately it came after he closed his shard, and the community was pretty messed up, also it was right before Cyan closed down UU. So we have no idea if things would have cleared up or not. I would like to hope that they would have, but with the understanding that there were some people in the community who were not the paragons of virtue that they professed to be. I have hard proof of that, but I would have dealt with them fairly if they did not get out of line and cause me problems.
Running a shard is not all fun and games. Dealing with the complex relationships people develop and treading carefully around so as to not step on any toes, is very difficult. But when problems developed, if you did not solve them then sooner or later they would come back to bite you when you least expect it. Another problem is when you like the two sides that are fighting, and in the interest of friendship you settle the problem at a draw. This did not solve the problem, and the more this was done, the bigger the lump under his rug got. The former shard owner agreed that part of the problem was a tendency to sweep problems under the rug and consider them solved. When those problems migrated over to my shard, right in the middle of the hacking brouhaha (perfect timing!), I got stuck having to deal with them. But since they were not solved at the root (where they happened on the other shard), I got dragged into something that was damn near impossible to solve. And I had nothing to do with the original problems, but I got blamed for trying to find a solution (at least at my end). It was very frustrating, to say the very least.
When I see someone say “Slackers is a problem”, and it is one or two (or however many) people who just happen to hang out at my forum, I get upset as I am tired of “Slackers” being a scapegoat for the problems of individuals. I know one Greeter who is a pompous ass, but I do not say all Greeters are pompous asses. It makes no sense to even think that. Slacker’s is not a person(or persons), it is an idea. Just like the Guild of Greeters, but we are the Guild of Slacker’s.
Before UU closed, I helped to form a small group of shard owners like we had at the GoA. We all worked together well, we even helped others start their own shards. We cooperated and worked well together, and I think very highly of every single one of them. They share information, they help each other, and in doing so we all grew and became better at what we did. We are still friends to this day, and I know that I can work with every single one of them. So a cooperative of shard owners can work, they just have to remember that the group is only as strong as their weakest link.
I do not expect to change the hardened mind, but I hope that anyone who has some common sense will see that there is much more to this old story than just ‘Slackers are evil’. There are twists and turns galore, but it all comes down to the fact that one person had the ability to disrupt the community, all with the help of a few of his friends.
And people complain that the AdminKI had power?!
Also, thank you very much for your kind words about Slacker’s Kiria. I am glad that you were treated well and you enjoyed the company of people who call themselves Slacker’s. And you are right, UU was a blast and we had a lot of fun there. Our old UU Slacker’s Forum is full of pictures of the crazy stuff we did. There are a lot of very fond memories in there.
May our luck hold and may we keep having fun in Uru in the future. If we want that and Cyan is willing, we all better figure out a way to get along or we will be right back at square one again. Those who do not learn from their mistakes are doomed to repeat them. I am sick and tired of the backstabbing and vitriol. I am not out trying to generate it, I want to stop it.
February 19th, 2008 at 12:18 pm
Tried to post this a couple of times, maybe 3rd times the charm?
Well.. well.. well.. here we go again, Slackers sitting on their lily white pedestal, stirring up yet more shit, as only they can, and feigning the highroad.
I have never seen a more functionally dysfunctional group, ever crying ‘foul’, and ‘it’s them against us’ that rises to the call as a group to defend the indefensible, time and time and time again. Yet openly admitting in that cesspool they call the Steamroom, that they would post things to see if they would be edited, ever baiting the mods on MOUL, then taking the removal of their baiting posts as proof postive that they are yet again being abused, and keeping a running thread to document those abuses. Most appalling is the names of some of the so-called pillars of the community who actually participate in some of those threads. Some of your stink is leaking onto other private forums, just a heads up.
There are not a lot of people who spent any time in UU who haven’t witnessed the nasty goings on in that forum before it was so tidily hidden away in a controlled ‘members-only’ section of your forum. The better to keep an eye on who comes to have a look.
The self-righteously abusive posts, the fully justified verbal beatings of others until they either ‘apologized’ for attempting to defend themselves, or were banned for not cowing down to them.
To be honest, I and my ilk, were not sorry to see UU go. Between the holier-then-thou Slackers abuses and the corrupt Tapestry core leadership, with it’s protection of hackers and full on support and protection of that sex club that ran on that shard (there’s what you want people to see in a ‘family’ oriented game), it was a relief to see it put to bed. Except now those same players are back on the scene peddling their grand vision of a new UU that they control, may God help us as the damage to the reputation and memory of Uru will be irreversible if they are allowed to do as they did before.
Sorry to see you go Alahmnat, truly one of the best parts of the entire Myst community and a darned nice guy, but buddy, none of us blame you in the least and admire you taking a stand against them when so few of us dare to after seeing what they’ve been capable of, prime but not by any shot the only example, with what they did to ‘Ruby’. We’ll miss ya’.
February 19th, 2008 at 1:55 pm
“the corrupt Tapestry core leadership, with it’s protection of hackers and full on support and protection of that sex club that ran on that shard (there’s what you want people to see in a ‘family’ oriented game)”
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAAHHA!!
That’s the funniest thing I’ve heard all frickin’ week.
February 19th, 2008 at 2:10 pm
LOL @ BladeLakem’s reply. /clap /clap /cheer /cheer. LOL I agree! My, EricL was such a scary dude wasn’t he?
February 19th, 2008 at 3:53 pm
LMAO @ The Spokesman
Gee, I dunno. If we really were standing on pedestals, would explain why you look so low right now.
Communities are like distant families, yes? Well, what would happen if someone attacked your family? How would you feel about that? Pretty offended I’ll bet. Same mechanics apply here. I guess when you offend one, the whole lot come to scratch your eyes out.
Maybe you should have your eyes checked. Last I saw, things on the MOUL forums weren’t too hot. In fact, I would say the modding is exactly as PS says it is. I wouldn’t say we bait the mods. We post, they edit. I guess it must be because we merely speak our minds and encourage free-speech (something the DoMs seriously don’t want). Why do you think we have a Steam room?
As for some stink leaking onto YOUR private forums, yeah you’d be surprised what a stink hole the Slackers forums are with a bit of the crap being picked up here and there. If you could smell it for real, you’d be in a coma.
Funny thing though, we DID keep an eye on who joined the forum. We ESPECIALLY kept an eye out for who merely joined to have Steam room privileges. We just KNEW they would join, to be honest, and weren’t the least bit surprised. In fact, we found it rather amusing, I will admit.
As for “The self-righteously abusive posts, the fully justified verbal beatings of others until they either ‘apologized’ for attempting to defend themselves, or were banned for not cowing down to them.” Pleeeeease, what BS have you been eating?
Why don’t you post a link to one of the threads with these so-called abusive verbal beatings. Actually, here, I’ll do it for you. Wouldn’t want the heat to get to your head when you go through the Steam room. And hey! Everyone who wasn’t in UU will get to see the “abusive gorilla beatings” that went on over there!!
http://slackersforum.servebeer.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=35699&highlight=#35699
Looks like the tables do turn. We were attacked first. Don’t blame us if you say something stupid you KNOW will drive us to our limits and not expect retaliation. To do so is just blind. The only reason that Joclyn got abusive verbal beatings was because she said something wrong. And having to apologize for being defensive? LOL. Sounds more like something a forgiving man would do.
Perhaps Slackers isn’t all that bad as nay-sayers may claim…
Sure, I understand that in the eyes of others I may seem an utter ass, but you get what you pay for.
February 19th, 2008 at 5:58 pm
You know, Spokesman, I tried to read your post. Really, I did; however, your use of inflammatory language just put me off entirely.
Perhaps you need some lessons in writing? I learned back in middle school to not use that sort of language when you want to be taken seriously.
February 19th, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Err… Maybe I’ll learn to not hit submit until I’m done.
I meant to include:
I feel that we are all too emocionante/angry/en mal humor to continue with this line of dicussion. Not that my comment will stop any of this.
February 19th, 2008 at 6:42 pm
…Apparently some aren’t paying attention to the first point I posted. Enough words have been said—everyone knows where each person stands. No amount of arguing will convince either side of the other’s position—especially such through inflammatory language.
Someone once said “Bitterness is the poison we take trying to kill our enemies.” At this point, just let it go. Just decide what people/groups you don’t want to deal with anymore, and remove them from your life. You want to hate certain people/groups? Fine. Just ignore them. But this continued flaming is only beating a dead horse, and has the potential to drag previously uninvolved people into it.
The healing of the Community can’t begin until the dung-flinging stops.
February 19th, 2008 at 8:30 pm
No, the dung flinging won’t stop until certain people leave the community. Period. As Alahmnat said, it’s not going to be him. I’m not going either. So, there you go. Rock meet hard place. Hard place, meet rock. We shall see.
February 19th, 2008 at 9:06 pm
And there you have it. We want the ‘dung flinging’ to stop, and they refuse to stop unless we leave the community. This is the mindset that we are faced with, and problems will never get solved until they get their way (as they are usually used to having).
These people have the emotional maturity of a spoiled rotten four year old, and reasoning with them is like trying to reason with the same.
February 19th, 2008 at 11:49 pm
Hmmmm….
You guys keep bringing up the Ruby thing. I find that humorous.
What you may not know is that I contacted her through E-mail to see how she truly felt and to try to smooth things out a bit. Back then I actually cared what others thought about Slackers, and I tried my best to fight our reputation.
Now I realize why it was so futile. When you have a set of people like this willing to back stab your whole group because of the actions and words of a few people, how can you fight back?
Back to the Ruby thing….
The way we left it off is that she was fine. At least that’s what she told me. She was upset but really the only thing that happened is that PS said some nasty things about her, and she got offended. Big deal. You guys talk like we ripped her heart out and feed it to the lions.
Stop being so dramatic.
I think I can comfortably say that we are not going anywhere. So there you go Deb. Back to the old, leave, deal or hide scenario.
February 20th, 2008 at 8:59 am
Bad,
I would suggest that you not use Ruby as the example of victim recovery you feel should be treated lightly.
It was MORE than nasty words, as you well know. I, too, was there.
She was less concerned for herself than for children for whom she was responsible. Still, it was she who was targeted, and there was a physical, emotional reaction as there is to any sort of attack.
You would be upset as well, if someone you cared for was threatened. I have seen evidence of that in this thread.
I personally walked her through the situation, talked her through pain, helped her recover.
What did you expect her to say? She wanted to be left alone. Most people do not come back for more. She doesn’t make a habit of attacking in return. Or at all.
If she finds some humor in the situation, that is her right. Not yours. If she finds there is empathy for her in the community, she has the right to that empathy. It’s not up to you to try lessening that for her. Why would you even want to?
I have nothing against you. I do think your choice of words was unwise.
I won’t say more about it. Let it be.
February 20th, 2008 at 11:07 am
When will the intolerance stop. Deb’s demand that the Slackers leave the community is another example of the real problem with the Uru community. Al’s original post on this thread was a cowardly act targeting a group that has been singled out as trouble makers for years. They are different for sure, and at times do stir things up … currently because the MODs at the MOUL forums seem to go out of their way to hold them to a higher standard. Standards are made to be standard, not exceptions. They were involved in several disputes over the last several years, but were not solely responsible for the trouble.
Greydragon’s mistake in not sending PMs to Tomala for her inappropriate signature animation was his mistake, not hers. For Al to go off on a tired and worn out “The Slackers are BAD” is just downright unfair. GD admitted his mistake. Why can’t Al admit his? Has anybody every heard of the concept of an apology?
I consider myself a crossover Slacker. I “grew up” on Tapestry and consider myself a friend of most of the principals on both sides of the seemingly unsettled disputes from UU. Despite this, the Slackers have been very accepting of me, despite my pedigree. From my perspective, most of the hatred in the community comes from those wanting to purge the community of those who are different. Slackers aren’t the problem, they may only be a symptom. The intolerance and hatred that Al and Deb have shown above IS the REAL problem with the community.
I wish it would end, but it won’t end until people quit looking for somebody to be responsible for their disappointment. We are all disappointed MOUL was cancelled. It was cancelled because there were not enough subscribers interested in the game. Maybe some of the feelings of superiority shown in the community for the last four plus years didn’t appeal to new explorers. I will guarantee you this, having the Slackers leave the community won’t fix anything, it would just reinforce the real problems within the community.
I am ashamed that these feelings (as shown by Al & Deb) are still out there in the community. The Slackers are due a big apology, but I really doubt they’ll get one.
February 20th, 2008 at 12:43 pm
I will tell you exactly what is the problem with Slackers. Even though I know it won’t change a thing. Whenever there is trouble, they are right in the middle of it. And more than often the cause. Then they come out in swarms, with false reasoning. Semi logical – semi peaceful – semi intelligent posts. Always defending themselves. They can’t be wrong, naturally. They manage to turn things around, accuse others of their own devilish behavior.
When all logic fails, after no defense is justifiable, all of a sudden they claim to be individuals. Thus not responsible for each other’s actions. But almost in the same breath, it is “them” versus “us”. Where “us”, being the Slackers, are always the poor innocent victims. As a group of course. With wide eyes they are baffled at the hostility thrown at them.
What is the Slacker’s problem? They thrive on conflict. They are not happy until everybody is as miserable as they are. Members of the “Slackers family” are so eager to let everybody know they are a Slacker. They post in behalf of Slackers. They are publicly proud to be a Slacker. PapaSmurf mentioned he IS Slackers. Yet you are surprised you are tarred and feathered as a group.
I have no idea what goes on in the Slackers forum, I don’t wish to go into that hell hole. But I see what oozes out in public places. And frankly, it stinks. This is how it normally goes. Yes, there is a pattern to those who care to look carefully. Tomala makes a controversial statement, which guarantees flame throwing. This gets her in trouble. But not for long. Because all she needs to do is boast she was just being sarcastic, adds a little link to the definition of sarcasm. Or snark. And then is utterly surprised that people still don’t worship her.
PapaSmurf, always ready to defend his darling daughter, quickly tells the world how innocent she was, and then turns the tables and says none of it was her fault. If she was my daughter, I would put her across my knee and give her a damn good spanking. That would fix her siggy.
February 20th, 2008 at 5:02 pm
I’ll tell you what the problem with Slackers is. They don’t swallow crap. Is that why you want them ejected from the community, or am I wrong? And who said we were always in the middle of trouble. Put it this way, when and if we were, we were RARELY the force that got the cauldron stirring at any rate.
Funny when you say that we turn things around to suit our favor. Actually, if I remember correctly, it was forum sharks that started the arguments to begin with and would vow not to stop until the argument came out in their favor. Funny thing about having an archive forum is the better to store all the crap that has happened in the past. It’s possible that if crap is stirred again, the public can and will be able to see both sides of the story.
Funny thing about groups is, you may be part of one, and you may take a stand for each other, but you are still individuals. Only reason that this has become “them” versus “us” is because someone decided to drag the Slacker’s through the mud (again).
Yeah. we’re victims all right. We have been since Day 1. There is just one big problem that always comes with having many communities trying to work together. Sometimes there is a bad mix. Certain people in those groups are not helping either. Besides, why would we be wide eyed with hostility? It sure as hell isn’t anything new to us.
Thrive on conflict? No, honestly, what is the REAL problem? Last I checked, we weren’t blood thirsty for conflict. Sharks from other forums have come and served it to us on a silver platter. And unfortunately, it is those same people who are not satisfied until they get what they came for. And they’ll constantly rip at the topic until everyone merely decides to stop reasoning, or until it gets too hot for them. Oh, and yes, I am happy to be a Slacker.
And if you don’t want to step foot on Slackers, how do you know all this is going on? Why don’t you actually have a look for yourself? Those archives have nothing to hide, they are accessible by anybody. Same with the Slacker’s Live forums.
As for information that oozed out into the public (not that I’m surprised really). As I stated in my previous response, there were those who joined ONLY to have Steam room access who are probably spies. But let’s not jump to conclusions on that part just yet.
Here’s how it usually goes down. Tomala (or someone else) starts a rant because something is making her upset. This gets her into trouble with people who don’t share her view and are upset with her. I wouldn’t say “not for long” because it seems clear to me that there are those in the community who love to hold a grudge.
PapaSmurf, always ready to defend his daughter (and the rest of his family) tells the anyone willing to listen that she is an adult and can make her own decisions. Even if you were or were not Tomala’s father, it really wouldn’t make a difference. Might I also state that a mere EXPLANATION as to why her sig was removed the first 2 times would have sufficed, even though there are a few others on the MOUL forums who have animated signatures.
February 20th, 2008 at 6:43 pm
Spy in that little forum of yours? Don’t make me laugh. First you claim it is a public forum. Then all of a sudden you see spies all over the place. Make up your mind! As for stuff oozing out in public: I was referring to what these precious Slackers themselves post in several places. Open for the whole world to see. Just look at this thread and see what has been admitted to right here. Do you not realize that most people know what kind of people you are? What does it tell you that whenever there is strive or uproar in the community, Slackers are always part of it. There are a few other big mouths in the community. But they do not cause the discord and hatred that you guys do. Maybe it is about time you smarten up and have a good look at yourselves. And try to get along with the community. One can only dream. But enough said. I am not going to waste my breath any further with you or any of the other Slackers. I have said my piece. And I will say no more.
February 20th, 2008 at 6:50 pm
I said I would not be back. But I want to correct one typo. Strive = strife. Just so you understand me.
February 20th, 2008 at 7:42 pm
Easy to say stuff hiding behind an alias.
Your right though Slackers always seem to be a part of trouble in the community….. Why is that? That is curious……
It couldn’t be that the Slackers are actually a PART of the Uru community? Nah, that’s a ridiculous thought. I mean that would mean that they have been a part of all the good things that had happened too, and that would crush your little world view BearFoot.
You won’t sully your eyes with reading our forums? Good. That invalidates your words. You aren’t fully informed about us or any of the past situations. You wish to remain ignorant of what had actually transpired, and that is the biggest crime set upon this blog so far.
Where exactly are you getting your information Ma…..I mean BearFoot.
February 20th, 2008 at 8:52 pm
BearFoot, thank you for demonstrating exactly what I said in my post this morning. Intolerance is what is wrong with this community and you are a good example of what it creates. Somebody with a preconceived idea of a group (Slackers) that is not based on your own first hand experience, but from what others have made you to believe.
I have never seen any plotting in the Slacker’s forums, although I do see many posts like this, “Here we go again” or “Would you believe this?”. Maybe all the plotting goes on in The Meter Room, of which I have yet to gain access.
The reason the Slackers are in the middle of this current unpleasant situation, is due to two things that happened recently. First, Greydragon admitted that he made a mistake by deleting the animation from Tomala’s signature without sending her a PM explaining why he did it. He admitted to failing to follow the guidelines he set up. The second cause of this situation was for Alahmnat to fly off the handle with his post on this blog showing his dislike and intolerance for Slackers, apparently triggered by Tomala’s reaction to GD’s poorly handled administrative actions.
Actually there is a third thing at work here, people like Deb Johnson and you taking this occasion to jump on board with Alahmnat to bad mouth the Slackers. The behavior you mention in your post, “Whenever there is trouble, they are right in the middle of it. And more than often the cause. Then they come out in swarms.” So you actually believe they are the cause of this current situation? That is hilarious. The swarms you refer to more often have been from friends of those at odds with Slackers. I’ve read the posts in The Steam Room, and I know you haven’t. Did Slackers cause the trouble with hacking of the UserKI?
Doesn’t the community have more to worry about right now than some bitter individuals unable to get over their hatred for a group that prefers to stay in their own little corner of the community?
I’ll try to close with a few words of wisdom:
Do not poke a tiger and be surprised that it has sharp claws. Don’t be upset that it is a wild animal. In other words, use a little common sense and common courtesy. Don’t pick a fight and then be surprised that the targeted group feels the need to fight back. That is one thing I’ve noticed about the Slackers, when provoked, they fight fairly.
Really folks, this is all old stuff that for the most part was already put behind us. But from the vitriol and outright hatred by some in the community towards the Slackers, I guess I was wrong. Some just can’t forgive or forget. I don’t understand the motives for such unprovoked attacks. I guess in some sick way, y’all want to blame Slackers for GameTap pulling the plug on MOUL.
Pitiful if you ask me. I understand that my posting in defense of the Slackers might affect how I’m viewed by the rest of the community, but I’ll take that chance.
February 20th, 2008 at 10:07 pm
/clap